Activism: Are We Ready For This Moment? Featuring Charlene Carruthers

Activism: Are We Ready For This Moment? Featuring Charlene Carruthers

Emily Williams:

Hi, everyone. We're so glad to have you back. Thanks for joining us. Over the course of this season, we focus on lots of topics many believe are existential threats to our democracy, like the global spread of fascism and the blueprint for it to take hold in the US, project 2025, the dire state of the federal courts, and the role they play in protecting our rights and upholding the constitution, how those who have historically put their faith in electoral politics see their political allies failing them in abandoning the principles they hold dear, and the deliberate stifling of third parties and other large political movements by those same allies. To look around and see the state of the world, the state of our politics, and the state of our movements, one would leave with a pretty grim prognosis.

Emily Williams:

Our democracy is in critical condition, but that doesn't mean our condition has to be terminal. As I mentioned last week, after my conversation with doctor Nicole Wen, we have to remember that we're seeing much of this backlash because our efforts and movements have actually worked and are still working. We should also take that as evidence that we can build the world we want to see. But how do we actually come together in this critical moment to make our voices heard? How exactly does one take that first step into organizing?

Emily Williams:

And how do we take the vision of our political imagination and turn that into substantive change? I'm Emily Williams, executive director of the Arcus Center For Social Justice Leadership at Kalamazoo College. This is Beyond Voting. We started this show for people like you and me, people who care about making a difference in the world, people who want to share in redesigning the democracy we deserve outside of the typical political binary. This podcast is rooted in our conviction that democracy requires more participation than just voting.

Emily Williams:

It's up to all of us to take action if we wanna see real change. We'll feature conversations with leaders, activists, and educators discussing the state of our country's institutions, ongoing systems of oppression, and most importantly, how we, the people, can take critical actions in pursuit of true equity and justice. Typically, I end each show with a call to action, imploring you, the listener, to get motivated, go to work in your communities, and organize to help shape the better world we all deserve. But for the last episode of this season, I wanna switch things up a bit. And don't worry, we'll be back in 2 weeks for a post election episode with a special guest that you won't wanna miss.

Emily Williams:

In mainstream media and in our conversations with friends and family, there's a lot of talk about the challenges that we face as a country or the challenges that a specific candidate faces in a tough race against an opponent whose values scare us or don't represent ours. But there's rarely talk at all about working outside electoral politics to affect change in our day to day lives. Even the way most of us think about movement work, organizing with like minded people to push our elected officials or our communities working together to help meet our immediate needs is usually framed as something happening under extraordinary circumstances. Grave injustices being addressed by bold and powerful leaders seemingly built for the moment. It's the stuff of compelling documentaries and biopics, but it's rarely presented to us in a way that invites us to imagine ourselves in those roles as fully engaged and active players in the struggle.

Emily Williams:

As Rosa Clemente said when we spoke with her, if we're waiting for a savior, a quote, unquote, great hero of history to come along and save us from this moment, we'll be waiting forever. The secret is only we can save ourselves. Our mission at the Arcus Center For Social Justice Leadership is to develop and sustain leaders in human rights and social justice. And I think it's crucial to remember that there are already people out here creating real change. People who are standing for social justice in their personal lives and in their professional lives day after day.

Emily Williams:

But we shouldn't expect them to go it alone. We need more well informed critical thinkers, like the people we interviewed this season who sparked my curiosity and made me so much smarter during our conversations. We need more folks who are on the front lines of motivating people and laying out bold strategies and radical pathways to actually create a new society. We need more folks, to paraphrase Angela Davis, to act as if it were possible to radically transform the world and to do that all the time. We need more activists.

Emily Williams:

Frankly, we need you. And that's why I'm so excited for you to hear from this week's guest, activist, organizer, and author, the indomitable Charlene Carruthers. Her work spans more than 20 years of community organizing across racial, gender, and economic justice movements. Charlene is the founding national director of BYP 100, a Chicago based social justice organization led by black youth activists. She's also the author of the 2018 best selling book, Unapologetic, a Black queer and feminist mandate for radical movements, which provided a vision and a framework for young activists to build power, create more radical and intersectional movements, and grow into the next generation of leaders and visionaries.

Emily Williams:

I wanted to talk to Charlene today because I knew she would help us understand what challenges activists and those who aren't yet activists face as a part of today's liberation struggles, how we find and build community, how we care for ourselves and others doing the work, and most importantly, how liberation is a global movement that is interconnected with the struggles of oppressed peoples around the world. Charlene, welcome to Beyond Voting. We're so happy to have you. So this podcast is called Beyond Voting because we feel it's important to understand that democracy requires more participation than just voting. It's up to all of us to take action if we wanna see real change.

Emily Williams:

So tell us, how does someone who wants to be an activist, how do they get started?

Charlene Carruthers:

So first, thanks so much again for having me join this conversation today. It's always timely to talk about how we can get involved or how we are involved in affecting, changing, and hopefully transforming the world that we live in into a place that we actually deserve. And for people who are interested in becoming an activist or even a community organizer, one of the first things that folks can do is to talk to other people, like, to be in community with other people and to be curious and ask questions both for themselves and then also with the other people. Because I think from a place of curiosity, we can actually figure out more about what other people are experiencing, but it puts us in a position to better understand what we're experiencing and to break the isolation. So, yes, if you're interested in being an activist, know what you care about, know what makes you upset, know what you wanna change.

Charlene Carruthers:

As important as knowing that is understanding how it connects to other people. And so one thing that we do as community organizers and as activists is we have these things called relational meetings or one to one. Everyone calls it something different depending on who you're talking to. And the point of those meetings, they're an intentional meeting to build what is often called a public relationship with another person, where you're able to identify or to discern who they are, what they care about, what values you share, and what opportunities might exist for you to work together. And in so many ways, it is important for us to be in community and in relationship with other people who also want to see something different happen and who share our values.

Charlene Carruthers:

If folks are interested in activism that is about transforming our world into a place that we actually deserve, then that actually requires us to take up values that are radical and perhaps even revolutionary, that go beyond the boundaries of reform, go beyond the boundaries of only a few people receiving something better or is just getting incremental changes to actually saying, we deserve nothing short of transformation in order to live with our full dignity.

Emily Williams:

100%. And I'm so glad that you started with that. And I think that building the relationships, talking to other people in real life, Yep. Particularly for our younger generations is really difficult.

Charlene Carruthers:

Yeah.

Emily Williams:

Right? I think they're so accustomed to thinking about what activism is based on what they see on social media, which doesn't actually require relationship building in real life. Right? But it's really difficult if not impossible to create the kind of transformation of the world that we deserve, right, without relationships and without talking to people in real life. And so that's certainly an additional call to action for young people who wanna be activists to build up their relational skills, their people skills.

Emily Williams:

Right? Like, that's so important.

Charlene Carruthers:

For sure. And not just with people who agree with you or people who, like, appear to be just like you. I'm not saying you go out and talk to a, like, a self avowed fascist or supportive of the KKK or is a deep, deep Zionist. That's not what I'm saying. I'm talking about talking to people who are like, I'm trying to figure out what's going on in the world.

Charlene Carruthers:

I actually think people should have access to education. I think people should have good food to eat. But I don't actually know how that happens, or maybe I don't actually understand why more policing doesn't keep us safe. It's not that the person believes that police are the only way, but they don't know any other way. That's the only example that's been given to them, the only possibility that's been given to them.

Charlene Carruthers:

I'm interested in talking to those folks, and more often than not, those are the folks who are living in our communities, people who are in our families, people who attend our various places of worship, our gyms, our schools, all of that. So I'm not talking about the far right people trying to convince them. I'm talking about the people who even say that they're Democrats.

Emily Williams:

Yeah.

Charlene Carruthers:

People who say that they're liberals, who say that they're progressives. And some of those people could very well be homophobic. Yep. Some of those people could be transphobic. Some of those people could be ableist.

Charlene Carruthers:

And nobody is moved if they're only allowed to be introduced to or confronted with their own views. And so there's this sticky place that if you're gonna set out to be an organizer or be set out to be an activist, you also have to make a commitment to working with people who don't completely agree with you on everything.

Emily Williams:

And that's the work of change. Right. So now, Charlene, tell me this because this is a word that has gotten co opted recently, this term radical. Mhmm. So just tell us what do you mean when you say radical?

Charlene Carruthers:

When I say radical, I mean both the idea and the practice are recognizing what are the root causes of the problems and the issues that we are facing or we are experiencing and are taking up practices that do not reinforce the very things that put us in this position in the first place. And so an example of that, I'll talk about abortion. So there's one way to understand abortion through a reproductive rights framework that says abortion is a I'm being very intentional about my language.

Emily Williams:

Yeah.

Charlene Carruthers:

A decision between a woman and her doctor. Mhmm. It's a issue of privacy. And then there's another way to understand abortion as one particular practice of health care or one particular practice of bodily autonomy that is a part of a broader universe of what it means to have access to reproductive justice and saying that people should be able to determine when and if they want to parent, particularly carrying a pregnancy. And when they do decide to carry a pregnancy or they do decide to become a parent, they can do so without fear or without violence from the state or other actors, frankly.

Emily Williams:

Right.

Charlene Carruthers:

And so that is a more radical idea. It's a more radical idea to say, actually, in addition to me fighting for access to abortion care, I'm also gonna fight for lunch and breakfast for all children in schools. Mhmm. I am going to fight to not have policing in schools, but to have librarians and nurses or other counselors, things of that nature. So I'm naming both the idea and the practice that is more radical.

Charlene Carruthers:

And what is not as radical, which is more liberal and in some ways oftentimes built as progressive as well, is saying, we just want everybody to have a right to abortion without addressing how expensive it is, how far people have to travel. And in addition to cisgender women needing access to abortion, we're also talking about children.

Emily Williams:

Mhmm.

Charlene Carruthers:

Teenagers, non binary people, trans men, many different people who need access to abortion care as well. But if we only stop there and say we should just have a right and it should be a decision between a woman and her doctor, knowing good and well that we don't even have access to affordable or free health care in this country, that it's not a real thing to just wish and hope or say that we should have this right. But let's get more radical and talk about how everybody should have access to this thing. And as much as we have 1,000,000,000 to spend on weapons to ferment both genocides and occupations across the world, we have money to spend on those things. We don't have money to spend so people can have access to the full universe of reproductive justice and reproductive care.

Charlene Carruthers:

So that's what I mean when I say radical. It's like really getting at how capitalism, patriarchy, anti blackness, white supremacy, ableism, transphobia, homophobia, all undergird our lack of access to something as clear as abortion care and that if we're gonna address it, we have to see it as a part of a broader universe of things that we can address.

Emily Williams:

Right. Because I think that that really encapsulates what it means to have a radical left view of politics and some of the main social justice issues that we're confronting right now. So, Charlene, can you help us make sense of the moment that we're in right now? What's at stake for us here in the US but also globally if we continue to see fascists taking office?

Charlene Carruthers:

At best, I can take a slice out of what is happening right now and try to explain at least what I'm seeing as a part of the bigger picture here. So I live in Atlanta right now, and Andre Dickens is the mayor. And he, on paper and in rhetoric, is a Democrat. And he moves like a fascist. And what do I mean by that?

Charlene Carruthers:

In the past year, Atlanta organizers, as a part of a much barter movement to stop the building of a COP City in the Waianae Forest here, undertook a referendum campaign, which essentially meant that they gathered over a 100000 signatures from registered voters in Atlanta calling for a referendum so that people who are voters in Atlanta can decide whether or not COP City would be built. The petition wasn't to say it shouldn't be built, it should be built. It was so that people could decide. Let the people decide. Mayor Andre Dickens has completely shut it down.

Charlene Carruthers:

He has put every obstacle in the way possible from making that happen. Democracy is the practice of everyday people who are considered to be citizens being able to play a role in the governance of their lives and the operations of the communities, the cities, the towns, the municipalities, the states, the nations that they live in. And if over a 100,000 of them say they wanna vote for something and the mayor says no, that is a fascist act. Yep. And he is a Democrat.

Emily Williams:

Mhmm.

Charlene Carruthers:

So what we are seeing happening, that is one example of what we are seeing is people behaving as fascists under the umbrellas of the Democratic and the Republican parties. And so that is a part of a global dynamic in which people will use certain labels or use their platforms, use their parties to enact policies that silence everyday people.

Emily Williams:

Right.

Charlene Carruthers:

And we see that from Atlanta to Texas, where people are being purged once again from the voter rolls. We see that in Haiti. We see that in Gaza. We see that in Kenya, where their people are saying no to what their government is doing, including their imperial incursion in Haiti. We see that, happening in Sudan, where you have 2 opposing factions terrorizing or, oppressing, dominating the Sudanese people.

Charlene Carruthers:

And so my hope is, like, given that example of Atlanta, that's just one example of what is happening globally. And that is within the context of massive climate catastrophes and also, fractured food systems globally as well. At the same time, and this is not to be, like, all hopey changey, but it is to name that there are movements

Emily Williams:

Yep. Yep.

Charlene Carruthers:

In opposition. And not just in opposition to fascism, but movements that exist to actually build something that is better. And we don't have enough power yet. Like, we don't have enough power in the US to stop our country from sending 1,000,000,000 of dollars and approving of $18,000,000,000 weapons package to the country found in 1948 known as Israel.

Emily Williams:

And I think that that's like a really important point because going back to COP City, that was really sophisticated organizing and really strong organizing to get that petition and to have the ongoing demonstrations. And still this mayor didn't listen to what the people wanted. And I think the same is true with and I like the way that you put it, the country that was founded in 1948. Mhmm. The majority of Americans don't want US support for what's happening in Gaza right now.

Emily Williams:

No. But yet it's still happening. Yep. And so this then makes me wonder, do we understand the centers of power correctly right now as activists or burgeoning ones? And then are we focused on the right things?

Emily Williams:

Do we put too much emphasis on electoral wins, especially presidential elections? Do you think that there's anything that's distracting us right now?

Charlene Carruthers:

That's a hard question to answer because I'm not one who believes that we should opt out of the electoral process. I don't think we can afford to opt out. I think that due to many forces, including philanthropy and mainstream media, the presidential election does receive an outsized amount of attention as opposed to, like, city councils, school board elections unless you're in Chicago, or even governor, gubernatorial races. They just don't receive nearly as much attention. And I do think that's by design because those people are much closer Right.

Charlene Carruthers:

To our everyday lives and hold disproportionate amounts of power. And that if we actually live in what people believe could be a democracy or what democracy could look like, then that wouldn't be the case. And even the amount of money I saw a figure that the Kamala Harris campaign has raised $500,000,000 First of all, who's getting that money? Media outlets, consultants, and I'm sure some portion of it is going to a field operation, but a lot of money is gonna go towards advertising. Who wins with that?

Charlene Carruthers:

The political consultancy class stands to, like, gain a lot from her raising 500 that doesn't go into her pocket.

Emily Williams:

Mhmm. $500,000,000

Charlene Carruthers:

and just what we could do with that kind of money is just wild to me.

Emily Williams:

I like what you're bringing up because it also reminds us that we need to change our political systems, right? The point that you just raised makes me think about getting money out of politics. And then also, we could think about abolition in this context. A lot of people bring up revolution. You know, I've heard people saying, like, we can't even participate in this election.

Emily Williams:

We have to, like, get rid of the system altogether. So do you think that those on the left sometimes romanticize revolution? And how, if at all, is that different from what activists are actually working for?

Charlene Carruthers:

I've been deep in reading stuff on settler colonialism because that's, like, the big part of my research. And for better or for worse, I just read the piece by Patrick Wolfe that is oftentimes quoted and is, like, defining settler colonialism as a structure and not as an event. So it makes me think, for better or for worse, how revolution is it cannot be understood as an event. It is if not a structure, it's a process. Even if you look at everything from the Haitian Revolution, it wasn't just 17/91.

Charlene Carruthers:

Like, we're at least until 18/04 and then some. These are years that we're talking about. The Cuban Revolution, years that we are talking about. I rarely hear people in the U. S.

Charlene Carruthers:

Frame the ending of apartheid in South Africa as a revolution because there's no singular moment. Like, when Mandela is elected, that wasn't the moment that apartheid fell in South Africa. But one should absolutely mark as a revolutionary era or revolutionary period in South Africa. And so, absolutely, I believe we fall into the trap of romanticizing revolution as though it is an event when it is not this, like, sole moment in which we topple the dictator or we topple the president. We can look to Egypt, we can look to Sudan.

Charlene Carruthers:

Like, these are ongoing things. And if we better understood a revolution, as we understand abolition as a protracted struggle Mhmm. We understand that as, like, not a single moment, I think we get ourselves in a much better position to even understand, like, how Grace Lee Boggs talked about revolution or how she talked about transformation. We have to transform in ourselves. We have to have revolutions within ourselves.

Charlene Carruthers:

And not as an individualistic practice, but how long does it take for me to change a practice? Sometimes, like, if it's forced, boom, I have to do it immediately. Which one could liken to, like, a massive, be it armed or physical moment in which dictators or leadership is toppled. And even then, even if I, like, stop a behavior that I've had to because maybe I got a health diagnosis, like, I have to stop doing this thing, There's still work that I have to do to recover Right. After I've stopped doing that particular behavior Mhmm.

Charlene Carruthers:

Or stop taking that particular set of actions. So even if there's a revolutionary moment, a revolutionary event, there is so much work to be done after that particular event in order to, like, actually create the kind of life, the kind of world that we wanna live in. And so that's what I mean when I say the importance of personal transformation. It is not for the sake of understanding we do this person by person, but really in order to better understand what it takes to revolutionize or transform anything is these critical moments and also the work that comes before and after those critical moments.

Emily Williams:

I think so many young people in particular, and that's who we work with at the Arcus Center For Social Justice Leadership primarily, they're waiting for that one revolutionary event. And just because we wanna focus on revolution doesn't mean that we don't do the work. Right? We still have to do this work to bring about change. Right.

Emily Williams:

And so now I'm really curious what you're gonna say about this next question because so many people are gonna celebrate Kamala Harris as this real moment of progress. Like, I saw someone post in response to Joe Biden at the DNC saying that this is so rare that we have an aging white man ceding power to a younger black woman. So you know that people are gonna think that we have transcended racism, that this is this moment of progress. And they're also gonna take that to me that our work is done. But is it?

Emily Williams:

And what is the significance of a president Kamala Harris when we witness the killing of Sonia Massie? Yeah. And then, ultimately, if Kamala Harris wins the presidency, what changes for black people?

Charlene Carruthers:

I am super clear that a vote for Kamala Harris could mean Donald Trump not becoming president again. So I understand that. I actually get that. I'm not confused about that. I understand the case that is being made on that level.

Charlene Carruthers:

Everything else, I'm not convinced by. I think people are being lied to. Like, I'm just like, literally the day that Biden announced that he was stepping down and basically knighting Kamala or it was a succession. No Democratic process for it to happen. The day that it was announced, people were excited.

Charlene Carruthers:

She raised 1,000,000 of dollars that day with no commitments to anything or anybody. It was like and why? Because people are absolutely afraid of another Trump presidency, and I get it. I get it. I don't think people are out of their minds for feeling that way.

Charlene Carruthers:

It was everything else that happened after that that was wild for me. Mhmm. And I was just like, oh, what do you mean? She's about to do this and she's gonna do that and all these things are no. What is possible is not having Trump in the White House again.

Emily Williams:

Mhmm.

Charlene Carruthers:

That's what's possible. What is also possible is that if she were to win and new Supreme Court justices' seats are open, that is possible. Like, give me the real. Yeah. Give me the real.

Charlene Carruthers:

Don't give me this other stuff. Like, she's gonna create all these opportunities. She's gonna make sure a ceasefire happens. All these things. Like, I don't need all these false promises.

Charlene Carruthers:

But let's name what power she actually has and what we know she could do. We Biden, when he had the opportunity to appoint a new Supreme Court justice, appointed Ketanji Brown. Boom. That was a promise that he made. That's something that he can actually fulfill that has low political stakes, and it has real consequences for our lives.

Charlene Carruthers:

I'd rather hear that from people than all this other foolishness that people are are sharing. And so I'm on Twitter, for again, for better or for worse. And someone noted around the time Obama was inaugurated, it may have been at his inauguration, They were sitting next to Toni Morrison, and Toni Morrison said, this changes nothing. She said, this changes nothing. And I was like, wow, my respect for her has deepened.

Charlene Carruthers:

Because she was there. She was at the the celebration. You know, you can recognize the significance of a thing and still note that it changes nothing significant for our lives. Like, something can be notable. The first woman president cool, cool.

Charlene Carruthers:

First, like, Black and South Asian woman to be president of the United States. Cool. But I'm not clear that that actually changes the material conditions of Black people's lives without struggle. Is it possible? Sure.

Charlene Carruthers:

But it doesn't happen without struggle.

Emily Williams:

You're listening to Beyond Voting. We're back with today's guest, community organizer, author, filmmaker, and founding director of BYP 100, Charlene Carruthers. Before the break, Charlene shared with us how to begin activist work, and she placed a particular emphasis on talking to people who may not agree with you. I think that's critical to our work as activists. As she said, nobody is moved if they're only introduced to or confronted with their own views.

Emily Williams:

Part of activist work is a commitment to working with those who don't completely agree with us on everything. In the second half of our discussion, we touch on why solidarity with other press people is important and what their movements can teach us. The disappointing reality of mistaking identity politics for progress and how the most radical thing we can do for each other is tell the truth. Gaza has been front and center for social justice activists. It will almost be a year at the time that we're recording this since October 7th.

Emily Williams:

So tell us how the struggles of black folks and Palestinians are interconnected. What lesson should we be taking from watching our president facilitate the plausible genocide of Palestinians in Gaza? And what does it mean in terms of what could happen to marginalized people here at home? What lessons should we be taking from the pro Palestinian organizing that we've seen around the world?

Charlene Carruthers:

This is also it's an important question and also, a question that deserves so much time. And part of why I am even struggling to begin to answer the question is because Michael Harriot from theGrio just published this article yesterday. And I just wanna make sure I bring this up because it's deeply troubling for me, and I'm disturbed by it and also by current trends right now that I think are not just, like, traditional cointerpo in the sense of someone is literally just setting up black people on TikTok and Twitter to say black people should not be in support of Palestine at the expense of our own lives here, our own experiences here.

Emily Williams:

But I don't think

Charlene Carruthers:

that's happening in the streets. It's a thing that's happening online where people are engaged in a lot of arguments right now about, like, saying that Black people really shouldn't be concerned about what's happening in Palestine. They need to be more concerned here. So, yeah, he writes this piece, Why Pro Palestine Activists Are Beefing With Kamala Harris' Black Supporters, explained. And it's one of the most despicable pieces I've ever read in my life because what it is doing is pitting this false binary based on the so called numbers of Black people who are suffering here and Palestinians suffering in Gaza specifically, with no mention of actually, like, there are black Palestinians, but that doesn't really matter in this piece.

Emily Williams:

Right. Right.

Charlene Carruthers:

And also with a lack of recognition of the long hail, not just solidarities between black Americans and Palestinians, but Black and African people globally with the Palestinian struggle for liberation. It has been going on since 1948 and then some that people and Black Palestinians themselves being engaged in struggle against Zionism and the Zionist state that has occupied their land and and pushed them out. And so if people take away nothing else, if you don't care about anything else, would you or could you care that the very same money and resources that should go into your children's schools, into parks, into health care, into air conditioning, into public transportation in your homes and in your communities is being used to buy bombs. That's where that money is being spent. It is being spent to do that.

Charlene Carruthers:

So if you care about nothing else, can you care about the fact that what should be going towards your communities is going towards killing other people? So if you can care about that, I also implore people to care very deeply about the fact that cops here in the U. S. Are being trained with cops in the state known as Israel. They are being trained together on how to best surveil, oppress, dominate, and enact violence in our communities.

Charlene Carruthers:

They're being trained together right here through a company called Geely that has a base here in Atlanta and in Georgia and in other places in the world. They're learning tactics together. So the same things that they're learning over there and enacting on Palestinians, they're doing it in our communities. Those two things alone, the amount of money that is spent and the cross pollination of tactics against us, I would implore people to consider in understanding what's at stake for us in our lives. And the last thing I'll say is who does it serve when we say we're okay with the US supporting genocide, or if you wanna call it a conflict or you wanna call it war, what does it serve us to endorse that?

Charlene Carruthers:

How does that help us?

Emily Williams:

Right.

Charlene Carruthers:

How does that actually help us? Just as as much as people are upset righteously about the US involvement and what is happening in Gaza and its complicity and its supporting of it, yes, be angry about what it is not doing and what it is doing dangerously and violently against Black people here in the US. I got room for anger for both, but we don't have to strike down other people in that process.

Emily Williams:

I mean, just the particular ruthlessness with which the bombs are being dropped in Gaza, you know, it's over 40,000 people who have been killed. The ruthlessness plus the complete disregard for any kind of international law and going again so boldly what the majority of the world wants. And I think that that could be a threat here in the US, and, basically, Donald Trump in project 2025 has said this much. Right? That they wanna give police immunity in the event that they kill someone.

Emily Williams:

Right? And so, you know, that's a concrete connection of the IDF training police here in the US. So, Charlene, we're gonna take this to BLM for just a second. So let's say that BLM is as strong today as it was at the height of its influence. How do you think they would be influencing this year's election?

Charlene Carruthers:

What will be happening is that there would be a very clear opposition to the publicly unchecked installation of Kamala Harris as the Democratic nominee without a commitment to a ceasefire, without a commitment to other things as well, including reparations, including massive public transportation, public works, policing out of our schools, like the ending of the 1033 program, which provides military equipment to local police departments. It's a federal program. Yeah. Like, in the streets and also in media, like, the rhetoric would be different. There would be clarity of the connections between the genocide in Gaza, in Congo, in Sudan, the imperial incursion in Haiti right now.

Charlene Carruthers:

There would be clear lines being drawn and no one would be able to say people are being single issue voters. Because a part of the thing that confused people or, like, really threw people off at the height of the movement's power was how people refused to be single issue.

Emily Williams:

Mhmm.

Charlene Carruthers:

Like, to refuse to think that even policing was a single issue. That is not a single issue. It is connected to all these things. It's not a single issue. So I think the connections will be clearer because they're there, but they're being intentionally blurred, intentionally being made to be opaque when they're actually quite transparent.

Charlene Carruthers:

I think that's what would be possible. And just to be clear, like, I agree with the underlying assumption that the movement is not as powerful in that question that you named.

Emily Williams:

Okay. Yeah. We appreciate that. And what I also wanna underscore for activists is that that's what's possible, Right? When we do the work to build our movements and we have strong organizing and committed organizers, those are the things that we can do.

Emily Williams:

Right. I want activists to know that and particularly young activists. Okay. I'm gonna ask you just one more question about the election. Okay.

Emily Williams:

What does it mean to put a black female face on empire? I mean but look at it. I'm thinking about Linda Thomas Greenfield representing us at the UN, Kamala Harris. Right? Karine Jean Pierre getting up there every day, holding those press conferences.

Emily Williams:

Oh, yeah. You know, what would you say to an activist who is excited about Harris' nomination and wants to celebrate that, but disagrees with some of her previous or current policy positions.

Charlene Carruthers:

I would say to an activist who, like, wants to support Kamala Harris and has disagreed with some of her previous practices, to stay curious, ask questions, and be okay with your dissenting opinion, your dissenting position. Keep it. Hold on to it. Remain unconvinced. I'm not saying you gotta be like, you shouldn't vote for her.

Charlene Carruthers:

That's not what I'm actually saying. But don't become convinced. Don't do what many of us did, including myself, in allowing myself to believe that Barack Obama was a signal for better days to come. Like, there was a time where I absolutely believed that, and I wasn't like, actually, I just like, I didn't realize that that man said in his speeches before he was elected that he was in support of war. Like, he said it.

Charlene Carruthers:

He said it. He didn't lie. He actually did not lie. I wasn't paying attention. I wasn't paying close enough attention to what he said and what he what he actually articulated that he believed in.

Charlene Carruthers:

So hold on to that because that will serve us much better in the long run for you to be like, actually, I'm not completely sold on this. Then for you to be like, okay. I'm just gonna ignore all the things that, I disagree with, and I'm just gonna throw those away, and I'm gonna hope for the best. No. Please hold on to that.

Charlene Carruthers:

We need you because so many people are squashing dissent right now, and we need dissent in this moment. Otherwise, these people will just get to do what they want to do and believe that everyone disagrees with them, and we don't agree. So please hold on to that is is what I would encourage you to do.

Emily Williams:

Yeah. That's great advice, and that's also a tenet of democracy. Right?

Charlene Carruthers:

That's

Emily Williams:

right. I mean, we're supposed to be able to disagree. We're supposed to be able to dissent and be safe while doing so. And not only be safe while doing so, but be heard and then represented in government. At least those are the ideals of democracy.

Emily Williams:

So, Charlene, we spoke with Rosa Clemente a few weeks ago, and we asked her how we take our radical left politics and apply them to this moment that we're in right now. How would you answer that question? And then if there is no movement currently, what do you think it would take to rebuild?

Charlene Carruthers:

So how do we apply our radical left politics in this particular moment? I think we have to be honest with people. Tell the truth. I think it's one of the most radical things we can do right now and say, Hey, y'all, this is what we're up against. And we understand that this is what is at stake.

Charlene Carruthers:

It is actually not the most important election of our lives because every election is built that way. Like, this is what's possible if we take this particular action and this other menu of actions. Like, I don't want you to just vote. These are other things I really need you to do right now. And this is what we think could happen.

Charlene Carruthers:

We're not certain. We're actually not certain. We're not gonna make you false promises like the Democratic Party will make you. But what we think could happen if we do this, on the other side of this, it makes these things more possible. I would say that our movements are not as strong as they need to be.

Charlene Carruthers:

We don't have enough power. Movement exists in small towns and corners of communities on college campuses. My goodness. We just saw what they did on these college campuses. You can't ignore what these young people and elders and people in the middle on college campuses just did and what they're about to do when school is back in session.

Charlene Carruthers:

And so they are quite promising.

Emily Williams:

Yes.

Charlene Carruthers:

They are very promising. Yes. They are. The land movement work that's happening, the Black and Native and Black and Indigenous work that's happening on this particular land, I don't think our movement organizations are where they need to be. They are not strong as we need them to be, at the scale as we need them to be.

Charlene Carruthers:

But I do believe that it is there. I absolutely believe that it is there.

Emily Williams:

I think there's this misconception that when we see organizing like we saw on college campuses, that it just was somehow spontaneous and that it just happened in the moment. And it's like, no. That was expertise. That was skill. That was planning.

Emily Williams:

That was strategy.

Charlene Carruthers:

Absolutely.

Emily Williams:

I want activists to remember that. It's not just the march. It's not just the die in or the tent cities. Right? It's Mhmm.

Emily Williams:

It's everything that comes before that, and it starts with the commitment Mhmm. To organizing. Okay. So this is such a critical question, Charlene.

Charlene Carruthers:

Mhmm.

Emily Williams:

What do you say to people who say that they don't have the mental, physical, or psychological capacity to join a social justice movement? And relatedly, some folks on social media have asked if activists prioritizing self care is actually an abdication of responsibility. Where do rest as resistance, radical imagination, and self care fit into movement building?

Charlene Carruthers:

Emily, you ain't getting me in trouble.

Emily Williams:

Well, let me also say this that I hear that from young people. And often, they'll say, oh, Emily, I don't have the capacity for that. You know, I'm doing x, y, z things. And for me, it's disappointing to hear that. Well, I don't wanna answer the question for you, but I'll I'll say what I say to them is that when we talk about self care, when we talk about not having the capacity, that should be in response to something.

Emily Williams:

Right? Mhmm. You know, those analyses came about because activists from the civil rights era were just running themselves into the ground Mhmm. And not having any resources or, you know, essentially dying alone after they had committed their lives to struggle, right, for the betterment of all of us.

Charlene Carruthers:

That's right.

Emily Williams:

And so it's not like we just rest to rest. We rest in response to having done really serious hard work. Right?

Charlene Carruthers:

My goodness. Yes. So I think rest is many things, including essential for our bodies, for our spirits, for our minds. It's like you can't go hard for 7 days a week for 7 months without consequences. Right.

Charlene Carruthers:

Like, that's that's not real. Even the students coming out of the encampments, the one that I did check-in with, like, I just hope you took some downtime after that because there's a lot more to come. You take your rest because you work Yep. In addition to being a student, so you need rest. Yep.

Charlene Carruthers:

So it's one thing for you to say, actually, I have to work part time or full time, and I'm a full time student. And maybe even I'm a caretaker, so I don't have the capacity to do all these things. So what I would say is, what do you have the capacity to do? You have, like, maybe an hour every 2 weeks to phone bank, to Canvas, on the weekends. I give those examples as 2 things that I, like, am always anxious to do, but I do them because I've done because I have to, not because I like to do either one of those things.

Charlene Carruthers:

Or can you attend the meeting, or can you invite someone else to go because you can't go? And then accepting that your choices have consequences either way. That if you choose to say, actually, I don't have the capacity to do this, alright then. Then you have to make sure that there's room for other people. So don't shit on other folks who do decide to do it.

Charlene Carruthers:

I'm not saying that you don't get a say be I'm not one of those people. You didn't vote so you don't get to have an opinion. I'm not one of those people. Mhmm. I'm a you didn't vote so don't shit on the people who did kinda thing.

Charlene Carruthers:

Yeah. If you're not able to contribute, if you're not able to participate, cool. Just don't be mean to the people who are, and don't be hypercritical to the people who are. And it's okay. Figure out what else what what you need to do for yourself in that particular moment, and then hopefully, you can find some space to contribute in a way that helps to move the work forward.

Charlene Carruthers:

So I think we need rest. I know we need rest. Our bodies need rest. But that in and of itself is not collective resistance. I don't think it is.

Charlene Carruthers:

I think Black people organizing to say, we are not going to work 40 hours a week for you and not be paid enough for us to be able to not just pay our bills, but to enjoy life. So we're actually going to not work today. We're actually going to go on strike even we're demanding time off or whatever that is. That is not just saying I'm gonna go rest over here. We're gonna organize so that we can have space to rest.

Charlene Carruthers:

That's a much different thing. We wanna organize as students so the students coming up, after us next year don't have to do the same fight and they could actually focus on being students. And they could have more spaciousness, or I could have more spaciousness so I don't have to continue to fight this. But you have to actually create the conditions to have that more spaciousness. The last thing I'll say on this is that for me like, I'm not a full time organizer anymore.

Charlene Carruthers:

So what that's looking like for me is like, okay, I can contribute. I can go hard ish or go hard for a set amount of time, do the things that I say I'm going to do, and then I need to take a break. That is different from just saying I'm a just go over here and rest, and I'm not gonna do anything. Mhmm. It is also a recognition that I'm not the only one who could do the work Yep.

Charlene Carruthers:

And that there should be other people who are doing the work because it is not a movement if it's only a small group of people doing the work all the time. So other people can take breaks and then come back when they're ready.

Emily Williams:

Yep. Absolutely. And I love that because I hear so often, like, particularly students saying things like, oh, capitalism. I'm just gonna go take a nap. And it's like, that's not resistance.

Emily Williams:

That's not collective resistance. And that's so important that's such an important distinction to make for the young people who Yeah. You know, have read the Nap Ministry and then think that just because they're napping that that's then resistance. Right?

Charlene Carruthers:

No. It's something else. You taking a nap. Right. And that's okay.

Charlene Carruthers:

Just name it as that, but don't name it as something else. Right.

Emily Williams:

Right. Exactly. Okay. So just two more questions, Charlene. Mhmm.

Emily Williams:

What can BLM and black radical traditions teach us about how to confront today's fight for liberation?

Charlene Carruthers:

I think one thing that folks can learn from these various black liberation movements is that we need each other. Even if we don't like each other, we need each other, and that we're not gonna always like each other. And so it was like, how do we dig deep into the love that is present and say, okay, how do we meet each other on the terms of respect, the terms of actually we're not gonna agree with each other all the time, but we agree on these things. And in order for us to get any of these things changed or transformed, we're gonna have to do it with each other. So we gotta figure out how we're gonna do it together.

Charlene Carruthers:

And that's not just unique to Black Liberation work, but I will say that there's so many diverging positions within the Black Radical Tradition and BLM, Movement for Black Lives, all these things. What I oftentimes find is, at least in organizations that I've been involved in, that there's a high level of political alignment and then a high level of relational dysfunction. Because actually, we're not we're not disagreeing with each other on what we think should be done in the organization. But we are dysfunctional as all get out in the ways that we are relating and communicating with each other. Even if we are like, I don't wanna accept that I don't like y'all, then we have to accept that this is not the space for you and that there are other spaces in movement.

Charlene Carruthers:

And the black radical tradition is broad and that if a particular space that you're in in this particular moment isn't working, you can leave. Don't stay and keep yourself and other people miserable. Go.

Emily Williams:

Right.

Charlene Carruthers:

Go. Go somewhere else. Please, Lord, please go somewhere else.

Emily Williams:

Right.

Charlene Carruthers:

Because that's okay. And you should have that love for yourself enough to not stay somewhere where you don't wanna be.

Emily Williams:

Yeah. Yeah. And I love how you say, we need each other, and we're not always gonna like each other. And then it's like, okay. You have to learn how to manage that, and you have to learn how to manage your own feelings with that mostly.

Emily Williams:

Right? We have to figure out how to be uncomfortable in that process. Right? And that's actually how we grow.

Charlene Carruthers:

That's right.

Emily Williams:

Alright. Charlene, this has been so wonderful. This is our last question for you. Why should we tell young people to get active, and how do we engage nonvoters?

Charlene Carruthers:

Well, one, we don't even have to tell young people that they should be active. I think that there are enough young people out there telling other young folks or giving examples of what is at stake. And that's who y'all can go you ain't gotta listen to me. That's fine. You don't have to listen to me.

Charlene Carruthers:

But what about the people on your college campus, in your neighborhood, your organizations, the places that you work? What are they saying is possible and what is necessary? And lean into that and be curious about that. Ask questions. Figure out how you can contribute to the work because I think that folks know that what is happening is not okay.

Charlene Carruthers:

The turning point is understanding that something has to be done about it and that we can all play some sort of role in making that happen. And for folks who don't vote or who are not I mean, there are people who can't vote, people who have certain convictions in certain states where they're unable to vote. We have people who are undocumented, people who have very different legal statuses who are unable to vote. And so what if we understood that the way that we show up in politics, in public, is not just for the sake of ourselves as individuals, but for the sake of everyone, regardless of their voting status, regardless of their voting status. If we come to the the floor with that not being about who can and who cannot vote, but being about who can live and how we are living, who can live in what ways and who can't live in other ways, then I think that we can show up with more respect and more dignity for everybody.

Emily Williams:

Yeah. Well, that in and of itself is brilliant. Thank you, Charlene. This has been great.

Charlene Carruthers:

Thank you so much for having me today, Emily.

Emily Williams:

Over the course of this season, I've been trying to find the words to capture what it feels like to be someone who's invested in American politics right now. And I think capture is the right word because it feels like American politics is trapped in a cycle that swings from apathy and ignorance directly into panic like clockwork every 4 years. Every election is the most important one of our lifetimes, and we're forced to carry that burden into the voting booth. Life and death, democracy or fascism. Our chances to have our voices heard depend on making the right decision in that booth.

Emily Williams:

The weight of that inevitably exhausts us and wears us down. And over time, many folks either give up on ever seeing things change and eventually completely disengage, or they watch the fire of their radical values slowly fade into dimmer, more pragmatic political choices. They do what Alberto Toscano in episode 4 talked about. And eventually, they abandon their radical political imaginaries to become water carriers for liberalism in the name of defeating fascism and protecting democracy. Both are pretty convincing and attractive thought processes to follow.

Emily Williams:

They absolve us of responsibility and allow us to save our efforts in the face of overwhelming and impossible odds. Sure. Getting money out of politics would change things, but isn't that impossible? Of course, we'd love to have universal health care, but campaigning on that might jeopardize our wins and swing states, and we can't afford to lose those. These are the excuses that so many of us give ourselves to not take action.

Emily Williams:

But that's why we keep saying that democracy requires more participation than just voting. Our radical vision has to go beyond voting because the vote you cast isn't the only or even the most important place change comes from. Revolutions can be slow things at times where we all push the boulder up the hill together every day, And sometimes all we get is keeping the huge rock from rolling down the hill and destroying all the progress we've made and the victories we've built. But part of what activists like Charlene are sharing with us is that's okay because we can create a vision of the world that comes after the revolution, one that gives us all a peak to push toward. Voting can seem silly or futile, and that's okay too, especially when you know that the real work that makes tangible change in people's lives isn't simply your vote.

Emily Williams:

It's the work we do together to reach the top of that hill. Our vote can be a shield that protects the vulnerable and gives voice in support of the disenfranchised. But it's what we do outside the booth that will ultimately make the difference in our communities, slow the spread of fascism, and create the model for the world we want to live in. It's staying curious, skeptical and committed to speaking truth to power. Dissent is vital to our democracy.

Emily Williams:

Our voices are our most powerful tool in the fight for change. Demand the right to be heard. While a liberal politics might assert that voting is the most important thing you can do to participate in a democracy, a radical revolutionary politic will tell you that voting is just the beginning. A radical politic is, as Angela Davis put it, one that grasps at the root of the problems we face instead of merely pruning the leaves and calling the work done. It recognizes that real substantive change comes from action and that action could be shutting down the efforts of the police state to deport asylum seekers back to a place that they gave all they had to escape.

Emily Williams:

It could be starting a program that organizes rides to other states for people who need reproductive health care. It could be running for office in local elections. It could be advocating for policies that truly address the needs of unhoused people and creates opportunities for them to thrive in society. Or it could be building community with your neighbors in the face of rising natural disasters to make sure that no one is left unprepared regardless of whether you agree with each other politically. All of these things are small actions that grow when we do them together and they build something durable alongside the ruins of our government's broken institutions, processes and promises.

Emily Williams:

We don't have to rely on voting as a sole provider of change and hope in our lives because we can build something better than this system would ever give us. It's an act of defiance and dissent, something that is vital in a democracy, but it's also an act of devotion to our fellow humans and is focused on that radical vision of a better future. By now you might have guessed that I'm not here to tell you whether to vote or not nor which candidate you should vote for if you do. That's a decision everyone needs to make for themselves. But what I will say at the end of our 1st season is regardless of what you decide, I hope you'll remember that what brings about real change comes from something far more impactful than voting.

Emily Williams:

It comes from you. So tell us, how will you make a commitment to joining the movement for liberation? Are you listening closely to what our leaders say and not taking for granted what their positions are on the issues that matter to you? Tell us on IG at arcuscenter or say it with me, drop it in your 5 star review of the show. The more folks who share our show, the more we'll grow our audience and continue to be able to bring you episodes about critical issues that matter to you.

Emily Williams:

A million thanks to Charlene Caruthers for helping us close our season with this banger of an episode. I'm so grateful for the wisdom she shared with us and her incredible work fighting for change and inspiring others to do the same. You can find Charlene and her work at Charlene Carruthers.com, on Twitter at Charlene CAC, and on IG at Charlene Carruthers. If you like this episode or even if you've learned one interesting or valuable or thought provoking thing this season, please make sure to share our show with everyone you know, friends, family, neighbors, exes, everyone. Also, take a minute to visit us at arcuscenter.kzoo.edu and check out the important work we're doing with the next generation of social justice and human rights leaders.

Emily Williams:

That's it for this episode of Beyond Voting. Don't forget to join us in 2 weeks for our post election special. Until then, thanks so much for joining us. We'll see you in the streets. Beyond voting is hosted by me, Emily Williams.

Emily Williams:

Keisha TK Dutes is our executive producer. Kristen Bennett is our producer. And this episode was written by Kristen Bennett and me. Our sound designer and engineer is Manny Faces. Marketing is courtesy of Fay'Beon Mickens, and our music is provided by Motion Array.

Emily Williams:

Special thanks to my team at the Arcus Center For Social Justice Leadership, Quentin, Crimson, Tamara, Winter, and Kierra. Beyond voting is a production of Philo's Future Media.

The Arcus Center for Social Justice Leadership