Emily Williams: 00:37

Welcome back. Thanks for joining us. On our last episode, we talked to award winning journalist Karen Attia about the imminent and growing crisis our democracy is in and the impact that's had across the country. Among the dismantling of so many critical government programs, we've also seen a targeted attack on diversity, equity, and inclusion policies in the federal government and across corporations. In response, marginalized communities have come together to make their disapproval known through widespread boycotts of those companies.

Emily Williams: 01:11

But are boycotts still an effective tool for us today when we're up against corporate behemoths that are so deeply entrenched in our daily lives, like Apple, Amazon and Google, especially when those companies are working closely with a government that's seemingly more focused on enriching its leaders and imposing its own narrow ideology than enacting the will of the people? I'm Emily Williams. Welcome to Beyond Voting. This podcast is rooted in our conviction that democracy requires more participation than just voting. It's up to all of us to take action if we want to see real change.

Emily Williams: 02:02

We'll feature conversations with journalists, activists and scholars discussing the state of our country's institutions, ongoing systems of oppression, and most importantly, how We the People can take critical actions in pursuit of true equity and justice. Broadly speaking, DEI is a set of values and practices used by governments, businesses, schools, and other organizations meant to foster a diverse group of participants and ensure that the treatment of those participants is equitable and inclusive. It attempts to do that by acknowledging systems that have been used to impede those outside of the majority culture and by implementing practices meant to combat those systems within their organizations. Since January 2025, there have been a handful of executive orders signed by the president directly targeting DEI in the federal government and beyond. One of them reads in part: Critical and influential institutions of American society, including the federal government, major corporations, financial institutions, and institutions of higher education have adopted and actively used dangerous, demeaning, and immoral race- and sex based preferences under the guise of so called diversity, equity, and inclusion that can violate the civil rights laws of this nation.

Emily Williams: 03:33

The order then goes on to say, Those DEI practices threaten the safety of American men, women and children across the nation by diminishing the importance of individual merit, aptitude, hard work, and determination when selecting people for jobs and services in key sectors of American society, and then revokes many earlier executive orders meant to address environmental racism, diversity in government jobs and contracts, and critically, the executive order from 1965 establishing equal employment opportunity. Of course, we know the justification behind this wasn't to restore fairness to education and employment opportunities that had allegedly been threatened by DEI practices, but rather to roll back the considerable progress made in granting equal access to people who historically had been barred from those opportunities. These weren't imagined barriers they were explicitly laid out in the law, and when those laws were abolished, they continued for decades through de facto practices. And we'll get into the disastrous effects those executive orders have had and how they mirror an earlier time in this country's history later in the episode. The order also includes a section titled Encouraging the Private Sector to End Illegal DEI Discrimination and Preferences, which instructed federal agencies to take all appropriate action with respect to the operations of their agencies to advance in the private sector the policy of individual initiative, excellence and hard work.

Emily Williams: 05:11

As a result, a number of businesses rushed to comply with the order and began rolling back or even completely shuttering their DEI programs, pulling support from projects that benefited their employees, as well as outside initiatives meant to support businesses owned by members of marginalized groups. A mere three days after the release of that executive order, retail giant Target announced that it would be ending its DEI programs, and according to reporting from Reuters, that would also include its Racial Equity Action and Change initiatives, otherwise known as REACH, under which it had pledged to invest over $2,000,000,000 with Black owned businesses by the 2025, including plans to add more than 500 Black owned brands to increase exposure of diverse owned brands. Black buyers responded immediately and organized a boycott of the store. And in May 2025, Target CEO Brian Cornell admitted in an op ed that sales were in fact down, in part due to the DEI boycott. But with all these black dollars no longer going to Target, I wanted to know if those funds were being redirected elsewhere in a conscientious way.

Emily Williams: 06:29

So I had a quick conversation with Nikki Porche, founder of Buy From a Black Woman, a nonprofit dedicated to supporting and amplifying Black women business owners through advocacy, education and economic empowerment. I wanted to hear her thoughts on boycotting businesses that abandon DEI practices, as well as her thoughts on economic resilience and community driven business models in the midst of it all. Nikki Porche, thank you so much for joining us on Beyond Voting.

Nikki Porcher: 07:02

It's so good to be here. Thank you so much.

Emily Williams: 07:04

Let's get right into it. There was research that came out that 300,000 Black women have exited the workforce, and that's by and large a result of the mass firings in the federal workforce. That's also largely due to the rollback of DEI policies. By these systemic cuts and changes, Black women are often the most impacted, and we're seeing that right now. Also in this moment, it seems like we're all working from a slightly different dictionary when it comes to DEI.

Emily Williams: 07:36

Can you define diversity, equity, and inclusion for us? And why is it an important side of struggle right now in this country?

Nikki Porcher: 07:44

Yeah. So diversity, equity, inclusion means a lot of things to a lot of other people. For me as a Black woman, it means, okay, you're actually going to listen to the words I have to say because I don't look like the norm. It means that you're going to actually factor in what happens to me in my community opposed to just making sure it's for white men. It also means that, okay, their stats matter, their numbers matter, what they're doing does matter, right?

Nikki Porcher: 08:10

We did a report called the Rollback of DEI Social Justice Impact and what it did to Black women business owners, right? And what we found is that we really didn't benefit a lot from it. Yes, there were marketing dollars spent. There was some grants that were spent also, but we weren't the big beneficiaries. And if we were the big beneficiaries, it wouldn't be so easy for it to be rolled back.

Nikki Porcher: 08:31

So I do think that they're using that as a scapegoat term, saying, Okay, we're rolling back DEI, but what we're really saying is we don't want Black communities to get it ahead anymore. But what they forgot is Black women were the ones who built this country. So they went ahead and empowered us in a way that they did not think was going to actually empower our communities.

Emily Williams: 08:49

Right. You know, not to mention that, like, you know, we just aren't resilient as it is anyway. You know, we've been rising above systemic oppression since the beginning of this country. Okay. So we can be real about that.

Emily Williams: 09:01

You know, it's also when I think about who actually benefits from DEI, it's kind of like welfare. You know, what the narrative is, what the myth is, is that Black people and Black women are benefiting. You know, they're getting a free pass when really the beneficiaries, the greatest beneficiaries are White women. That's true for DEI policies. That's also true for welfare.

Emily Williams: 09:21

So, Nikki, now this is something that I'm really interested in because I know there are some people who said, but we never benefited from DEI. It was never the thing that we needed. So why would we want to protect it in this moment? So I wanna ask you, if DEI isn't the thing that we need, what should we be advocating for in the future? And I just wanna say to all of our listeners, there will be a future America beyond this administration.

Emily Williams: 09:45

So everybody just hold that as true. K? And so when that time comes, Nikki, what should we be advocating for?

Nikki Porcher: 09:53

Ourselves. And when I say that, I mean, like, if you are not pouring into things that represent you, then they're going to be gone. If I am a black woman and I'm not supporting other black women businesses, then what am I doing? If I'm a black person not supporting black businesses, what am I doing? If I'm a woman not supporting other women, then what am I doing?

Nikki Porcher: 10:08

If I am not supporting the causes that I want other people to support, then how can I actually advocate? How can I actually demand from other people to support these things if I'm not doing it first? So going into the future, you need to make sure that you are doing what you want other people to do. You know, the whole saying is treat others how you want to be treated. It goes with this too as well.

Nikki Porcher: 10:26

When it comes to the rollback at DEI, what we're asking for, you know, our study says that it did not benefit, but we have to really also acknowledge that it did help somewhat, right? There were marketing dollars where there was a lot of businesses who people didn't even know existed that were being pushed because they wanted to benefit from that. Even though it was temporary, they did benefit from that. There were people who were put into programs that we didn't even know that their businesses exist. We didn't even know the programs exist.

Nikki Porcher: 10:49

So there was some benefit when it came to that, but we had to continue to support those businesses. We're relying on, and I use this as an example when it comes to Target, because Target is such a hot topic and we just focus on them so much, right? There's a lot of businesses who were in Target. And then when the rollback came out and we found out those businesses were no longer on the shelf, there was a mixed conversation. Oh, well, we still need to go to Target because we need to support those Black businesses that are on the shelves in Target.

Nikki Porcher: 11:12

And some businesses were like, well, I'm going to leave the shelf on Target because they're not supporting my community, right? So it was just that back and forth. However, if you do not have community, if you are not supporting community, if you are not building community, it does not matter. We can't rely on these big boxes to speak for us as a community. So in the future, you need to make sure that you're building community.

Nikki Porcher: 11:31

You need to make sure that you're supporting your community before you ask other people to support the community.

Emily Williams: 11:36

Yeah. And I think there's also DEI in the way that it supported black businesses and black business owners, but there's also DEI. I'm thinking about the programs for underrepresented students to have access to college and college readiness programs. And I think it's also important to mention that there is such an effort to dismantle DEI policies because they worked. And we were seeing more social cohesion than we had, let's say, in the middle of last century, right?

Emily Williams: 12:05

So the DEI programs and the emphasis and the awareness raising also was having an impact. If it wasn't having an impact, then they wouldn't be dismantling them, right? Now those things can be true, this is for our listeners, those things can be true and white women can still be the greatest beneficiaries. And I mean, I just would also say that perhaps in the future post this administration, that also we should be taking a closer look at what worked, what was actually benefiting underrepresented communities, What was actually working, and how do we do more of that? How do we transform our institutions from the inside so that we're not constantly bumping up against bias and inequities, right?

Nikki Porcher: 12:47

I'm a very strong advocate of that part. We have to become the people who are making the decisions. We have to actually vote as well. We can't keep saying that voting doesn't matter and we don't vote because, of course, it's not going matter if you don't vote. You're not going to see the impact of the vote.

Nikki Porcher: 13:03

And not just in the big elections, your local state elections. There's so many positions that people don't even know that you have to vote for, right? There was a runoff that we just had here in Atlanta for our public service commissioner. And there was, I think, maybe like a less than 2% turn up for the runoff. Nobody went and voted again.

Nikki Porcher: 13:21

In order for us to get ahead, we have to make sure that we're seeing us in these positions as well.

Emily Williams: 13:27

Okay. Thank you for that. We're always reinforcing that on this show. But I wanna go back to the DEI rollbacks because some consumers have responded to the boycotts. You know, there's been varying levels of organization and success because people are boycotting Target.

Emily Williams: 13:41

They're boycotting Amazon. They're boycotting Walmart. They're boycotting a whole list of companies that support Israel. So do you see these current boycotts as an evolution of the civil rights boycotts in our country? You know, like, we always, at least our students and one person on my team, they're always bringing up the Montgomery bus boycotts.

Emily Williams: 14:02

Right? So, what do you say to people who say that we can't use the strategy of the past and that the boycotts can't work?

Nikki Porcher: 14:10

Yeah, so I agree and also disagree. When it comes to the Montgomery bus boycott, always being used as an example, what we have to remember is that was an isolated boycott. It was a certain one community doing one thing together in that small segment, right? And then they also redirected. They were working as a community.

Nikki Porcher: 14:29

They said, Okay, I'm not going to ride the bus. However, I do know Joe is going to pick up a group to go here. I do know that this group is going to work with that group. If I see, you know, Emily walking down the street, I'm going to offer her a ride. Emily can trust me to get into my car and take her safely where she needs to go.

Nikki Porcher: 14:47

So, it was a whole different type of climate back then as well. Now, I know if I see a man driving down the street, I'm not gonna get his car because I

Emily Williams: 14:57

Wouldn't advise it. I mean, if you don't know them, right?

Nikki Porcher: 15:00

Right. So, it's a whole another different. World. Yes, it's a different world now, a different time, and also a different type of community. When it comes to the Target Boycott, we see that it is being very impactful, but again, we're not redirecting our money.

Nikki Porcher: 15:12

So, think part of the boycott conversation is only giving, okay, don't go there. But a lot of the people are not saying don't go there, instead do this. And that's what needs to happen.

Emily Williams: 15:23

Yeah. And I like that, Nikki, because it's a bothand strategy, right? So we can both boycott and redirect our funds to Black owned businesses, to women owned businesses, to minority owned businesses. And then that way, we're both curbing corporate power and building up the power of our communities. So I appreciate that approach, and thank you for that.

Emily Williams: 15:48

And I also want to say, what can we learn from the Montgomery bus boycotts? This is where I think mutual aid also comes in and the emphasis on building community locally, because there actually is no reason why we couldn't rely on someone to give you a ride to work if you're not taking public transportation. We just have to build our relationships and start to weave that fabric into society where we can actually trust one another, rely on one another, share resources with one another, right? And hopefully this can open up a new paradigm of politics, right, and of our society, moving away from individualism and back into more of a community approach.

Nikki Porcher: 16:28

Yeah and that's really what it's going to take. We have to have community, right? It always goes back to community. There are some people who don't even know their neighbors, Emily, and it's like why don't you know your neighbors? A lot of it has to do with this individuality I'm a keep to myself.

Nikki Porcher: 16:44

And I'm seeing, like, Well, I'm not gonna give you a ride to the airport. Call Uber. If you're my friend, why would I not give you a ride to the airport? Can't you not rely on me to do this for you? And it's just that we had to get away from that part, so that we could actually build local community.

Nikki Porcher: 17:01

There was a woman, she asked me, she's like, Well, if I don't have a charger, where am I supposed to get it from? I'm not going to Target or Amazon. You can go see your local Goodwill. A lot of your local thrift shops are supporting a cause. Find one that's supporting a cause that you like.

Nikki Porcher: 17:14

Also, are lots of neighborhood yard sales. There is a group on Facebook called Give Something, Buy Nothing type of situation where people have more than enough, and they're putting it on there. That's how you get to know your neighbors. You cannot be afraid to know the people you live around because that's how you keep your neighborhood safe. We need each other.

Nikki Porcher: 17:32

So we have to remember that we need a community in order to survive this.

Emily Williams: 17:35

Exactly. Exactly. You know, we can't be afraid to know our neighbors. We also can't be afraid to ask for help. Right?

Emily Williams: 17:42

Like, really, no one is out here doing it alone. Some people are surviving, and and there probably is a lot of isolation and not survival. But it doesn't have to be that way is the point. Right? And and and that actually doesn't serve us.

Emily Williams: 17:53

It serves these people in positions of power who actually want to continue to exploit us and exploit the planet, really.

Nikki Porcher: 17:58

Well, even with them, they're not by themselves. Right? They need other people to do their work, to do their things.

Emily Williams: 18:03

Right. So we all know there was a huge debate among Black women business owners who had their products in Target. When the calls for a boycott were first started, you know, Tabitha Brown, you know, who has namesake gifting, kitchen and grocery essentials at Target, she said on a social media platform, contrary to whatever the world might tell you, it's been very hard for black owned businesses to hit shelves, right? Which is why it's such a big deal when we finally do, you know? And then on the contrary, we had Melissa Butler of Lip Bar.

Emily Williams: 18:36

She said, I'm quoting here, And that's not to say that people should continue or go back to shopping at Target. It's just to say that we knew that there was going to be huge impact. And to offset the impact, it requires people to be really intentional about where they're shopping. So here we have kind of like a predicament. On one hand, have the entire black community and many people are gonna be impacted by this rollback of DEI policies, but she's saying, still buy my products.

Emily Williams: 19:04

Right? Then you have other black business owners who are saying, We kind of knew that this was a contradiction and a risk. So where do you land with all of this? I mean, should we be kind of taking what some might think of as more closer to abolition on the spectrum of, let us get out of corporations altogether and build from the ground up in our communities and for our communities? Or do you think there actually can be kind of a half step?

Emily Williams: 19:31

Well, let me just go into Target and get my hair care product because it ultimately is gonna support a black woman. What's your take on that?

Nikki Porcher: 19:37

Girl. Okay. All right. So, Juan, Tabitha is a dear friend of mine. I love her to death.

Nikki Porcher: 19:47

So like, that's my girl. So let me just go ahead and reference that. Love you, Tab.

Emily Williams: 19:51

Got it.

Nikki Porcher: 19:52

When it comes to stuff like that, one, I walked away from a corporation, right? When I was working with H and M, I never told anybody to go and buy from H and M. I never said shop with H and M. I said, Hey, we're working with H and M. We're bringing Black businesses into it.

Nikki Porcher: 20:05

Visit the H and M to buy from Black women. So walking away from a corporation, I don't have a problem doing that. I've done it publicly. I've shared why I've done it. When it comes to the promotion of, you know, with Tabitha brand versus, you know, the Lip Bar and other brands that are stores, in we have to remember Tabitha has a licensing deal with Target.

Nikki Porcher: 20:27

So, the Lip Bar has an actual brick and mortar in Detroit. They have an actual website where you can buy from. They can build a community of people to actually support their businesses outside of Target. And this goes back to what I was saying earlier. If these small businesses are only relying on a corporation for their businesses drive, then we have a problem there.

Nikki Porcher: 20:49

We have a community problem. Because you're saying that your business is relying on this corporation and cannot stand alone. If your business is for the community, if you start your business with the intent to help and solve problems for your community, a corporation shouldn't be the only reason why that you can do that. And that's where I stand with that. If you're not building a community, then you're going to be in these type of predicaments where you can only survive because of the corporations.

Nikki Porcher: 21:12

And if you're not like, Hey, I'm in this store. However, I do have a brick and mortar. However, I do have a website. I need you to redirect your money to these places instead of keep talking about the corporations, then you're not going to be successful. And that's what I'm talking about.

Nikki Porcher: 21:26

Like, okay, stop doing this and do this instead. We have to make sure we're doing all of this.

Emily Williams: 21:30

Let's think a little bit more about ethical consumerism. Is there a space for more ethical consumerism in this economic resistance conversation, Or should we be moving to give up consumption altogether?

Nikki Porcher: 21:44

So there's a couple of things around that, right? A lot of that is going to be hard to do immediately. I don't know if we'll see it in our lifetime in just full transparency, but we can do more now to help that cause in the future, right? But at the consumer, it's just like, you know, making sure that you are not being as wasteful, that you are not just buying things just to have, and that you are, you know, doing those exchange things, trying to figure out how you can reduce it individually, and then also share with other people. With me, with Buy From a Black Woman as an example, there are so many people who will come up to me and be Oh my goodness, I bought this from a Black woman.

Nikki Porcher: 22:25

Because they're just so proud to tell me that they bought something from a Black woman because of the work that I'm doing. And somebody's Oh, I didn't watch TV this week. I read this book. And they want to tell you about it because they want to show you that they also are doing something that they did not think they were able to do. But because they admire it and now you're being a leading example, a living example, now they're doing it because they're thinking about what you did, and and that's how the stuff gets passed on.

Nikki Porcher: 22:47

So I have not shopped on Amazon since 2023, and I don't miss it. You gotta change that mindset. And also ask yourself, how much are you spending on it and how much of that stuff do you use right away? One of the biggest things that I bought on Amazon were books. I was a person, if I read a book and that book referenced a book, that's what I'm buying that book to.

Nikki Porcher: 23:05

You know?

Emily Williams: 23:05

I can relate to that.

Nikki Porcher: 23:08

It was like, I have to have this book today, but then I didn't even read that book when it was delivered. I didn't read the book right away. Now that I'm doing that, I'm going to my local library. I'm rediscovering books I have on my shelves. I'm playing book swap with my friends.

Nikki Porcher: 23:21

I'm in this neighborhood book club where we go ahead and we meet for lunch, they're and like, oh, here are some books that I've read that I'm no longer gonna read. And they introduce books to me too as well. And I'm even finding, Emily, there are books that I bought more than once. And it was like, oh my goodness, why do I have three copies of this book? Because you know?

Nikki Porcher: 23:37

But I had to have it in that moment. So reprogramming yourself with that, start with yourself first. Know, it goes back to as a consumer, like, we had to make sure we were a reprogramming ourselves. We had to make sure that we are being true to our culture. We had to make sure that we are doing the work that we want other people to do as well.

Emily Williams: 23:52

Yep. 100%. And that's, you know, it also is collective action. Right? So it's also understanding the power that we have when we act as a collective.

Emily Williams: 24:01

Alright. There we go. Thank you, Nikki. This has been really good. Oh, thank you.

Emily Williams: 24:06

Such a good and important conversation.

Nikki Porcher: 24:08

I really appreciate being here. Thank you for the invite.

Emily Williams: 24:12

Our main conversation today is with LA based author, activist, and political analyst Earl Ofari Hutchinson. Earl is president of the Los Angeles Urban Policy Roundtable and the author of multiple books on race and politics in America, including his 1970 book, The Myth of Black Capitalism, in which he challenged the idea that capitalism, in any form, could rectify the injustices against black people in America. We invited Earl to talk to us about the effectiveness of boycotts as a political strategy against the dismantling of corporate DEI policies. To learn if his thoughts have evolved on the idea of identity based capitalism as a tool for liberation and what younger generations can learn from the wisdom and strategies of those who lived through the civil rights struggle of the nineteen sixties. Earl Ofari Hutchinson, welcome to Beyond Voting.

Emily Williams: 25:09

Thank you so much for joining us.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 25:11

My pleasure.

Emily Williams: 25:12

Great. Now why don't you tell us about your own experience with boycotts? Could you have seen that an activist strategy such as boycotts is something that we would have had to employ in 2025?

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 25:26

You know, boycotts is a it's a tricky issue. It's not a straight line proposition. There's an upside and there's a downside. Let's deal with the the upside first. The upside is, number one, it does get attention.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 25:40

Number two, if properly organized, it does act as kind of a focal thing to galvanize a lot of people. Now the third thing is boycotts can be very effective if they're sustained, and that's where the problem comes in. You you can announce a boycott. We're gonna boycott this, boycott that, and I've seen so many in different venues and different targets. But the thing is, can it be sustained?

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 26:07

Can the energy be sustained? Can the momentum be sustained? And, also, you have to have an endgame. Is it really a good chance that you're going to have some kind of satisfaction or resolution for the endgame? Let me give you an example.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 26:23

Target, DEI, big boycott against Target. Don't buy, don't shop, don't go there, don't patronize, don't even look at Target. The reason being it was a clearly defined goal, clearly defined goal with Target. I think this is a good example in the political arena with boycotts. The defined goal was Target has rolled back DEI.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 26:48

That boycott seemed to be effective. Target got a big hit. It got a big, big hit in terms of stock went down patronage customers. A lot of vendors pulled out. So the message was delivered in a way that I thought was very focused.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 27:09

So that's the upside. If you have a good endgame, if you have a good ground game to bring it about mobilizing, energizing a program, a plan, sustain, you know, there's a good chance of success. Now downside. The downside is everything I just said, if none of those things are there, you're just blowing smoke. And the danger is whoever or whatever entity you're boycotting can come back and say, you see, we were resistant to that.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 27:44

We did not buckle to that. We, in fact, whoever the we is, in this case, the target is, did not give in. We're staying the course. So I think it has to be done very carefully. It has to be thought out.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 27:59

And most importantly, I have to ask the question, who is gonna lead it?

Emily Williams: 28:04

Yeah. You know, that's a great question. Also, because it's a collective strategy on a mass scale in order for boycotts to be effective. But let me ask you this. Are you surprised that we are still employing boycotts in 2025?

Emily Williams: 28:18

I mean, what does that say about this moment that we're in as a country right now, and what does that mean for marginalized groups?

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 28:25

No. I'm not surprised. The short answer. Simply because we've come to a situation, a point in this country, Trump on down, they made that quite clear, we're coming after you. We're gonna roll everything back.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 28:38

All the gang, labor, civil rights, all the gender issues, everything, abortion, just about anything you can think of that's been hard fought over the years, civil rights, civil liberties, social justice, and especially race is under attack. So a boycott is a weapon. It's an ancient weapon. It's not new. So it's like it's kind of a return to the past, bringing something back that has been used, particularly effectively during the civil rights era in the 1960s.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 29:12

So there's a template for using that. Now, I guess the only element of surprise, and I'm not even sure I can say that, but for the sake of conversation, is that many organizations and individuals are at the point now of almost what else can we do? Mean, it's not like the 1960s. Let's be clear on that. You had the NAACP strong.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 29:40

You had the Southern Christian Leadership Conference strong. You had the Urban League strong. For a time, you had the Black Panther Party strong. You had the student nonviolent coordinating committee, SNCC strong. You had a lot of organizations that were actively involved with civil rights.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 29:59

Now they weren't necessarily using the boycott because they had an organizational structure and they had a mass following and they had momentum, but that was fifty years ago. We live in a totally different time now. So boycotts, when we come back to that, can be effective. And unfortunately, it's going to have to be if you've noticed boycotts led by individuals, not organizations as in the past. And that's where the difficulty comes in trying to bring people together on a mass basis to make it work and to be effective, the one thing now that is there that is in place that was not there fifty years ago, which is a plus social media.

Emily Williams: 30:46

Right.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 30:46

That is a way to reach a lot of people. Very quickly, if you're gonna talk about boycott in any way, in any venue, in anything that's meaningful, there is no way around using social media. Certainly, Trump has understood that.

Emily Williams: 31:03

Right. Yeah. You got that right. And we've also seen that the boycott of Hulu and Disney plus was effective in getting those companies to reinstate Jimmy Kimmel's television show. And that certainly, that campaign was proliferated on social media.

Emily Williams: 31:22

And, also, to your point, it's not clear that there is any organization or exactly what individuals were behind that effort to boycott Disney plus. But, certainly, with the help of social media, it spread, and it was effective. So now and I wanna ask you a question because, you know, I work with students at the Arcus Center for Social Justice Leadership. A lot of the work that we do is with students who are concerned with making social change. And I have to tell you that we got a a lot of pushback from students about boycotts as a strategy.

Emily Williams: 31:54

So what do you say to people who believe that boycotts are a strategy of the past and that they won't work now?

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 32:02

Well, but that's not true. You mentioned Jimmy Kimmel. I don't think that was too bad. Think the result a lot of result positive on that. So I think that's nonsense to say that boycotts don't work.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 32:16

Think the only caveat on that, I have to go back to something I said a little bit earlier. I cannot emphasize this point enough. It's got to be properly led. It's got to have a good end game, and it's got to be I got to have some way to have measurable results. Then you can go and say, like they did with Jimmy Kimmel, it costs ABC, what was the figure I saw, $3,400,000,000, their stock tank, and they're squirming now.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 32:46

Wait a minute. We're losing lots of money, not just viewership, but we're losing a lot of bucks.

Emily Williams: 32:54

Exactly.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 32:54

When we talk about boycott, just be clear. I think what we're talking about is the number one thing to measure. We're talking about hitting some entity in the pocketbook. I mean, because that's what's almost anyone understands. That is a measurable result.

Emily Williams: 33:13

Right. And I just would also add that boycotts are often brought on because companies are playing a role in, diminishing our rights in some way, whether that's civil rights, human rights violations, threatening democracy. And so I just would also say to any of the critics out there, you know, these boycotts are not unwarranted, I should say. They're preceded by a serious threat to our rights. I also just wanna say to our students, you know, this was back in early twenty twenty five before any of the boycotts had started.

Emily Williams: 33:43

And we have seen successful boycotts of now Hulu, Disney plus, Target. And to be clear, the sticking point was also Amazon. And I think many more people are struggling to boycott Amazon precisely because of the convenience that it provides and that people have become accustomed to. So I just wanna say that just to give a a little shout out to our students because they still did do some work around conscious consumerism and and challenging the rights violations that are alleged against Amazon. You're listening to Beyond Voting.

Emily Williams: 34:17

We're back with today's guest, author, activist, and political analyst Earl Ofari Hutchinson. Earlier in the episode, he talked about the importance of strategy when it comes to effective boycotts, stressing the need for strong leadership and a measurable goal or endgame. That's such an important point when it comes to any kind of protest. Protests aren't just an airing of grievances. They also require a clear demand and a strategy for holding the line if those demands are not met.

Emily Williams: 34:49

But I wanted to hear more from Earl about his perspective on the flip side of boycotts. Namely, the idea that if we boycott corporations and instead spend our money within our communities, that the resultant rising tide of wealth created for a select few in our community would eventually lift all of our boats. Let's get back to that conversation. Let me ask you this. What are your thoughts on investing in businesses owned by members of marginalized communities in an effort to transform the economic realities of those communities.

Emily Williams: 35:25

Is there anything about that that's unique to black communities, or does that apply to other marginalized groups? I guess also this is a question about what is the impact of capitalism overall? I mean, can we do the work of liberation from a from oppressive systems like capitalism while still investing in individual small businesses?

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 35:45

Well, that's good to bring the flip side of this. Now I think there's a general way to approach this question, and it fits in with the boycott issue. Boycotts tend to be against something. You're not boycotting necessarily for something. You're boycotting against something.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 36:05

Now contained in that is for an in game four plus. So almost inherently, it's negative. Now, let's flip it again. How about not necessarily boycotting, but support of something that is, in fact, beneficial to our community, beneficial to our life. So we're not we're kind of flipping the boycott on its head.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 36:31

You mentioned African American owned businesses in the in the capitalist system. I mean, that's the system we live under for better or for worse. It comes up support. Support black businesses. Patronize black businesses.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 36:47

Why? You wanna not only sustain them, but you wanna build them. And it ties in with the boycott issue. Because if you have very strong, very financially secure, a support base behind it, a customer or a client base behind black businesses, then you can enlist them in a boycott campaign too with the added incentive there that there might be a vested interest in it for them. And certainly from a promotional standpoint, a business standpoint, if they're not in the same area that that particular business is that you're boycotting, then there might be a payoff there too.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 37:26

So I think you can weld the two together. I don't think they're mutually disparate. I think there's a commonality that we can bring to bear. I've always been a big supporter and advocate with one little admonition. Make sure that those businesses support our community.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 37:45

You know? And by that, I mean providing jobs, providing income, providing training, providing a lot of different things. In other words, it's a two way street. So I think coming back to the boycott issue, when you have a strong financial structure within a community, that makes it work. Let me go back to on that point with the Kimmel thing.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 38:08

Well, a lot of celebrities that have businesses in our business owners, they weighed in on that. And remember, they said we're going to come in on the stock issue. We have stock in Hula. We have stock in ABC. We have stock in Sinclair.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 38:22

They're stock in a lot of the entities behind Kimmel. So in other words, they brought a business angle to the boycott. So I think, again, all of this to me is interconnected. They're not separate.

Emily Williams: 38:35

Okay. I mean, I wanna ask you too because, you know, it's like we can support black businesses and ostensibly would then support black communities, and maybe that's something that we would demand with our financial support. But, also, so much of these political attacks have been a strategy of divide and conquer, particularly of marginalized groups. And so, you know, do you see a strategy with boycotts, is uplifting marginalized communities in general, not necessarily only supporting Latino businesses or only supporting women owned businesses. But is there a way in which we can direct our consumption so that it's increasing solidarity between groups?

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 39:12

Yeah. You know, you mentioned divide and conquer on that, and I think that's a good point. Any time you're talking about a boycott, let's say Target, let's go back to that. On the surface, it was very successful. Target lost customer share and they lost money.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 39:26

And I mean, that was well publicized. But let's face it, You have a lot of working class African Americans, a lot of working class Hispanics, a lot of working class anybody that goes to Target. They shop at Target. They get deals at Target. So you go to Target, the whole point is to save money.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 39:47

Now you're asking working people and lower income folk across the spectrum, don't go there. What what are gonna tell them? To go to Saks Fifth Avenue? I I don't think that's gonna work.

Emily Williams: 40:00

Right.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 40:00

So now you gotta Right.

Emily Williams: 40:02

Not practical.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 40:03

Yeah. You got a little problem now. You got a lot of people that have been shopping at Target, shopping at Kmart, shopping at Walmart, you know, for millennia to save money. Now you're saying don't do that. You know, for a working person living or someone on a fixed income, especially a person of color, you know, you're asking a lot.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 40:22

You really are. So how do you do that? How do you get over that? They're not actively opposing a boycott necessarily on political grounds or, you know, distinct grounds. It's just economics now on a personal basis.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 40:39

So I'm mindful of one people's pocketbook. It is tough to overcome that. But at the end of the day, does that mean you don't do anything if you let that get in the way? Because if that's the case, you'll never do anything. So the whole point is, you know, once you start down that path of a boycott, be very clear how you're gonna bring it about, the means to organize that, and most importantly, what is your end game?

Emily Williams: 41:08

I think that's a good question. And, also, I think in some ways, just weakening the power of these corporations is is also enough of an endgame. And where we are right now, even sending a message about the power of the people is an important endgame as well because we need to know as a society that we have power. Right? And and boycotts have been a a really effective way at showing that so far in 2025.

Emily Williams: 41:33

So now I wanna talk with you a little bit about capitalism's role in shaping identity politics. When you first wrote your book, The Myth of Black Capitalism in 1970, you argued that Black wealth could never combat the extreme inequality faced by Black Americans, and that ultimately just reinforced a Black bourgeoisie that exploited the black underclass to increase its own wealth. Right? Have your views changed at all since then? What's your analysis now?

Emily Williams: 42:00

And, again, could capitalism ever be a tool for liberation, or is this still a trap?

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 42:06

Well, actually now there's been an update. Now the myth of black capitalism, that was my first book. Actually, it was written when I was in college. They reissued the book on the fiftieth yeah. Well, on the fiftieth anniversary.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 42:20

Don't have a problem with that. I'm still here. We're still Congratulations.

Emily Williams: 42:23

It's clearly a great book.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 42:24

Actually, I was kinda surprised. I I just thought that was in the dustbin of history, and I did a new introduction to update it. I was pleasantly surprised at there was a good response to it. I just thought, you know, two generations have passed since that book has been written or was written and updated now. The two premises have not changed of the book.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 42:48

Circling back on your question. Premise number one, obviously, in a capitalist system, you're gonna have rich and you're gonna have poor. You're always gonna have a tiny strata at the top that control. And we certainly see that now. If anything, it's even worse.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 43:09

Certainly have an ironclad control on the wealth, on all the productive mechanisms in society, the businesses, corporations, financial structure, you're always going to have a small tiny percentage that control the wealth and the power in the system. That was the case fifty years ago and it's been the case probably since the dawn of humankind, And it's certainly the case now, if anything has gotten worse in terms of corporate capitalist control right at the top. And something that did not exist fifty years ago in the in the lexicon, the wealth gap, the income gap. I mean, that wasn't there in in the the terminology, in the language then. Well, it's there now and it's there with a vengeance now.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 43:58

So I talked about that, and that was one of the great that was one of the premises of the book that we come to the second premise. How do how do African Americans fit in all of this? Basically, we are working class people. And for much of our history in this country, at the lower end of the working class, oftentimes, if at all. Now the difference fifty years ago and now, I must concede this, nothing stays the same.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 44:25

We didn't have then a wealthy black upper class, corporate CEOs, obviously mega superstar athletes, celebrities of all sort, you know, the Oprahs of the world, the Bob Johnsons of the world, the, LeBron James of the world. I mean, I can go on and on. People that are very wealthy, African Americans. And many of them, I must say, are willing to invest in the community. They set up foundations, they fund different programs, and they do a lot of different things.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 44:59

So I'll give, you know, I'll give credit what creditors do. So that in a sense would seem to negate the premise that blast cannot be capitalist. No. It doesn't negate that. The fact of the matter is when you're talking about major institutional capitalism that controls corporations, businesses, major, and most importantly, the financial structure, it's still white and male at the top, generally speaking.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 45:30

Individual wealth is not the same as capitalism and control, namely the mechanisms of power. That's not the same. You know, you can be a rich person and not control anything. So it's not the same. So the only little nuance there is that more African Americans than ever have moved up the income scale and the wealth scale.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 45:55

But that doesn't change the nature of dominance and control at the top under capitalism. And for the masses of African Americans, it's even worse. It's even worse now than it was fifty years ago in terms of our existence. Let me ask you this. Fifty years ago

Emily Williams: 46:11

Right. Mhmm.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 46:12

In your wildest dreams, you know, as poor were then, we went back to the sixties, did she ever in your wildest dreams think that she would see whole families of African Americans, men and women and children, sleeping on the streets, sleeping on sidewalks. I'm not even talking about in homeless encampments. In tents. I'm talking about sleeping on the sidewalk, begging all over the place. I mean, you ever think in your wildest dreams?

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 46:44

We're not talking about poverty. We're talking about something else now. We're talking about rock bottom destitution, a society that has completely abandoned a whole group of individuals, a whole subset. So, again, when we talk about black, we talk about capitalism, we talk about where we stand today, in many ways, I have to say this, it's been a step backwards.

Emily Williams: 47:10

Yeah. I would agree. And, also, just because we have wealthy black individuals or wealthy Latinos or, you know, wealthy people of any race or ethnicity doesn't change the system, which still relies on the exploitation of an underclass. And I think that we're seeing a resurgence of an extreme exploitation of multiple underclasses. So it sounds like it's still a bit of a trap to think that if we just get enough wealthy black folks or enough wealthy folks of color, that then that means liberation for all of us.

Emily Williams: 47:44

And now I wanna get even more into identity politics, girl, because it's it's just so ingrained in everything that we're talking about. And I really do wanna, like, look at capitalism's role in shaping identity politics and particularly where it intersects with our government, particularly this current administration. We saw a surprising amount of votes come in for Trump from black and Latino citizens in 2024 as compared to 2020. According to a post election survey conducted by Navigator Research, the largest shifts in support for president Trump were seen among men, particularly men of color. Trump almost doubled his support from Hispanic men.

Emily Williams: 48:30

He tripled it from black men. So what do you think is behind that shift, and what's the class analysis that working class and low income people of color need to have right now?

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 48:44

Yeah. That did surprise a lot of people that so many younger. Now remember, the key word is younger. African American men back Trump, actually back in the first time too, and then much more so the second go wrong. Well, two things about that.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 49:04

One, remember, you're talking about it's not one, two generations removed from the struggles of the civil rights movement. So you got an age gap there. But not only an age gap, you've got folk that did not come up having that consciousness that came out of the whole civil rights movement decades ago. In many ways, they're beneficiaries of it. A lot of them are young entrepreneurs.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 49:25

A lot of them wanna be entrepreneurs. A lot of them are in entertainment. As we know, a lot of them are into sports. A lot of them into a lot of things, but they're not in the politics. They're not in the things that will build social consciousness and political consciousness.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 49:40

Trump comes along and says, you know what? I've done more for African Americans than anybody else. Look at all the businesses. You know? Look at all the money you could make.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 49:48

Look at all the prosperity. Look at this system. Look how great it can be. You could be a capitalist too. That appeals to a lot of young people.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 49:56

You know, it touches a nerve. So that's one thing. No surprise on that. The second thing is not that political and social consciousness there. But now, again, I think we don't want to make more of that than it actually is.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 50:12

We're still talking about a minority, a relatively small minority of African Americans, even at that age level, I would just say under 40. Even there, every Poland's every Poland survey I've seen that the majority, even within that age group, did not support Trump. So I think we have to be clear on that. But even if he had an uptick, I think that was just enough in many ways in a close election could have gone either way. It could have gone either way with Hillary first time, and it could have gone anyway either way with Kamala Harris.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 50:50

So it only took a small percentage to tip it in several swing states to Trump. But I don't think going forward now, Trump has been in there. He's made it crystal clear what he thinks and what he's going to do and how he's gonna attack African Americans up and down the food chain every which way, all the way from old the old Confederates renaming this DEI. Now you got Charlie Kirk, you got white supremacy, you got all that stuff coming up. You know, they made it clear on that.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 51:20

So I think anybody with a tenth of a brain, I don't care what age you are. If somebody's telling you, hey, I hate you, and I'm gonna support those that do, and I'm not gonna give you a darn thing, I I don't think it's rocket scientists to figure out you better better get on board because things are not working for you.

Emily Williams: 51:41

Right. And part of me really worries about social media's impact on younger generations and their political views because so much of what they're consuming online is informing their their politics. And, also, we're in a moment of incredible loneliness. I mean, we have a loneliness epidemic in this country as well, which is also linked to social media. So do you believe that a lack of community is partly why some of our younger generations lack perspective or maybe are not putting to the forefront that they are beneficiaries of, you know, the civil rights movement and the activism and organizing of generations before them?

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 52:25

Yeah. So you've got to have some organizational structure to really effectively push the envelope on social change. You know, I am a believer in the organization, but I'm also a believer in this not waiting for an organization to act. If I feel strongly and passionately about an issue, I do believe that one person can make a difference. I do believe that.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 52:51

And history has shown a person, one person can make a difference provided they have the energy, they have the drive, they have, I keep going back to this term because I think it's so important, an end game. They have a plan, they have a strategy, they have a tactical approach. And how do you get attention? It's good to get attention because you want to expand the base. The challenge, coming back to your point, the challenge is twofold.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 53:21

One, when you don't have an organization, can an individual step in? I say yes. And I have proven that. The second thing is what do I want to accomplish? And can I accomplish that with a finite period of time, with a finite number of individuals?

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 53:41

So going forward, I have to be brutally frank. This is not the 1960s and it's not going to be the 1960s. Yes, you have a well pring of individuals and organizations at the grassroots level, you know, that have actually marched. They picketed. They've had every kind of protest under the sun, boycotts.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 54:03

They've done all of that, and that's good. But I think at some point, when you look at the other side and you look at how they organize, you know, they they don't take any prisoners. I mean, they take no prisoners, and they're dead serious. We're gonna take this thing back. How we see America, we're gonna take it all back, lock stock in barrel.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 54:25

And we can we have state power. Congress control, Supreme Court control, definitely the White House control, many state legislatures, GOP control, the federal judiciary, GOP locked down in many ways. So that's a tough one. You're dealing with state power we're up against. So coming back to everything we've been talking about, really a concluding statement I want to make is this.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 54:53

Yes, boycotts are important. Yes, they have a place. And yes, they can be effective if done properly for all the reasons that, you know, I talked about. I think it's not the only thing, though. There are other things that can be done, too.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 55:07

Emily, I've always been a big believer in this. When people ask me, and I'm sure you get this, we all get this that are activists, people say, Well, what can I do? What can I do? I have a simple answer. Whatever you can do.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 55:21

I'm not gonna tell you. I'm not gonna give you any marching orders. I'm not gonna presume to do that. I don't know who you are, what you could do. Whatever you can do, if you're a teacher, be a good teacher.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 55:33

If you're a doctor, be a good doctor. If you're an attorney, be a good attorney. If you're a carpenter, be a good carpenter. You see where I'm going with this? You're whatever you are, be a good that and be a good something for your community.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 55:50

That is the thing. We live in an era of individualism, like it or not. Yep. So we have to have that perspective.

Emily Williams: 55:58

Okay. In your radical imagination, we want you to paint us a picture. What would a world without capitalism look like, and how do we get there from where we are now?

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 56:11

You know what, Emily, I'm laughing for another reason. Uh-huh. I'm not making this up. Just last night, you know, I tried to spend in the evening late. I turn off the lights in my study.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 56:27

I close the door. I light a candle, an incense candle, and I close my eyes. And I try to think about nothing, you know, just freedom, mind, nothing for a period of time, just to refocus at the end of the day. You're not going to believe this. I'm not making it.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 56:47

Maybe you have ESP. I don't know. Last night, for the first time during my meditation, I asked myself, Earl, what kind of world do I want to live in? I asked myself that and I had a fantasy. I started thinking about the world.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 57:04

Let me go through the checklist of things that I thought about during my meditation. Absolutely no violence. Number two, none of the isms, sexism, racism, religiousism, none of the isms, They were banished. They don't exist anymore. The third thing I thought about, a world of peace, tranquility, a pastoral world.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 57:34

A fourth thing I thought of, I keep hearing the term beloved, making real meaning when someone says, I love you. Ashley's showing that, a world of love, a world of compassion, a world of empathy, a world of helping those that are less fortunate, the dispossessed. In other words, a utopian world, no violence, love, peace, tranquility, none of the isms, You know what they are, all gone. None of that stuff vanished forever. But, Emily, unfortunately, you know what I'm gonna say.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 58:18

What? I woke up from my meditation. I opened my eye, and then I said, you know what? Dream time is over. I gotta come back to I gotta come back to doing an interview with you about things I don't I don't even wanna talk about and shouldn't have to talk about.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 58:38

Look. At my age, can I just say one other thing in in line with that?

Nikki Porcher: 58:42

Yes, please.

Emily Williams: 58:43

Mhmm.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 58:43

Emily, I thought and I'm not this is not a fantasy. I thought a few years ago, I thought earlier getting up there, you're getting into the seventies now. You know, what I am thinking, and this was before Trump came along, I'm thinking this would be a world that I can step back. I can retire from all the little activism, all the little things I can lead. I love classical music.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 59:13

I love to travel, you know, within limitations. I can travel a little bit, listen to my classical music, you know, go out and just have coffee and just relax with a couple of friends, not think about the problems of the world. Why? Because we've got individuals like Emily coming along that are much younger, that essentially are progressive. They're gonna remake America.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 59:41

All the old fuddy duddies of my generation, they're dying off with all that bigotry. They're long gone. We got young people. It's gonna be a real progressive America. Don't need Earl anymore.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 59:51

Earl, you serve your purpose. Put the old guy off the pasture. And then, Emily, guess what? I got I got a left curve and a right hook came that I couldn't foresee. And not just Trump, but everything he represents, I couldn't foresee that.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 01:00:08

I didn't think at my age I would still be out here having to fight the same frigging battles that I had to fight fifty years ago. I could not predict that. So I hope that answers your question. And at the end of the day, thank God and I praise the creator. I'm still here.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson: 01:00:30

And hopefully, I can have another day or two to be here.

Emily Williams: 01:00:33

Right. Right. And I also think we gotta build the next generation of leaders. Right? We're out here.

Emily Williams: 01:00:39

It's a new fight. Some of it looks familiar from things that we've seen in history, things that you've seen in history. And so that can also be a road map. And I think that's exactly what we're seeing with these boycotts. So, again, thank you for your time.

Emily Williams: 01:00:51

Thank you for your work, and thank you so much, Earl. Thank you for sharing so much wisdom and, your perspective. Boycotts aren't a new tool. We've long used economics as a battleground in the fight against harmful government and corporate practices. From the widespread sugar boycotts of the eighteenth century that helped pressure the English government to abolish the slave trade, to the economic boycotts of South African products and travel during apartheid, to the Montgomery bus boycott of the American civil rights movement.

Emily Williams: 01:01:25

People have been practicing their politics by not using their pocketbooks for a long time. And while our current fight against the destruction of so many of our hard won rights and protections isn't exactly the same as it was in any of those eras, it's still very much a fight we can win. And boycotts are a useful tool in that fight. As Earl mentioned, we know that boycotts work. Take Target, for example.

Emily Williams: 01:01:53

Since the boycotts began early this year, their stock has plummeted 33%. Rolling back their DEI initiatives cost them over $20,000,000,000 in shareholder value over the last nine months. And while there are many factors as to why that might be inflation, decreases in consumer spending due to a tanking job market. The DEI boycott is undeniably part of that. And there's no end to that boycott in sight.

Emily Williams: 01:02:23

That said, the impact of the anti DEI movement on women, people of color, college students, faculty and staff, and the disabled and LGBTQIA plus communities has been undeniably grim. And we know that anti diversity policies in the environments that they foster don't just end with a negative effect on our livelihoods. They also have significant consequences for our mental health. According to a May 2025 article published in the Journal of the American Medical previous studies showed that states with policies that supported the Defense of Marriage Act a law that defined marriage as a legal union between a man and a woman lesbian, gay and bisexual populations had higher rates of generalized anxiety disorder, alcohol use disorder and mood disorders compared with LGB people living in states without this discriminatory law. In addition, transgender people living in states where they were concerned that policies to remove their rights would be enacted in the future had higher rates of depression, anxiety and post traumatic stress disorder than transgender people living in states with fewer worries about the implementation of discriminatory policies.

Emily Williams: 01:03:45

Similarly, for Latina populations, anti immigration policies enacted at the state level were associated with more poor mental health days than Latina people living in states without anti immigration policies. It's also important to note that an overtly discriminatory climate was shown to have a detrimental effect on the mental health of young people. Research shows higher rates of drug use and depression among adolescents, especially among Black, Latine, and lower income youth, when they perceived there was increasing hostility and discrimination of people of their race, ethnicity, and sexual orientation, immigrant status, religion, or disability status in society. And though DOMA has since been struck down by the Obergefell ruling that enshrined the right to same sex marriage, there are valid concerns that it's not safe from being overturned. Just like we've seen with other statutes we've considered to be long standing, such as Roe v.

Emily Williams: 01:04:47

Wade and the Chevron doctrine. And we know these are not unintended consequences because we've seen something very similar play out in our history just over a hundred years ago. Shortly after he took office in 1913, President Woodrow Wilson took steps to resegregate the federal workforce. At the time, roughly 10% of the federal workforce was made up of Black Americans, many in professional positions. The effect the resegregation had on the Black middle class was devastating.

Emily Williams: 01:05:18

Discriminatory policies reduced the number of Black people employed by the federal government, increased the pay gap between Black and white workers, and decimated Black generational wealth. The policies continued for nearly three generations until the passage of the Civil Rights Act repealed them. But the harm done still resonates today. And sadly, that has been reflected in the widespread federal layoffs this year that specifically targeted so called DEI hires. That's why we cannot rely on a strategy of wealth building as a means of liberation for marginalized people.

Emily Williams: 01:05:55

Because something that can be ripped away so easily on a whim isn't a solid strategy to enact change. That's the weakness of individual wealth: Its inability to wield power. Collective power, especially when it comes to our money, is a much more useful strategy we should be using to hold corporations and governments accountable. Doubling down on capitalism and investing further in a political system that divides us into an owner class and a worker class will never liberate all of us, especially when it's a system that requires the exploitation of that worker class, and it will certainly never bring us together to fight fascism. We need to start looking closely at other political economic systems that will work for all of us and start looking to strategies from Black radical organizers and activists in the civil rights movement.

Emily Williams: 01:06:49

It's easy to scoff at history as not relevant to today's fight. But building intergenerational community with our elders provides us with sorely needed wisdom and perspective for the fight ahead. They've been where we are headed, and they can help point the way, which fits in with Nikki's larger point about building community. And not just among our cultural identities, but a community that builds solidarity across marginalized groups and demographics. Demographics.

Emily Williams: 01:07:19

Because we cannot fight back alone. But what does it mean to not just build a community, but build one that is self sustaining and can resource its members without relying on corporations? When we take the leap to get rid of something that's really comfortable and really convenient, like shopping on Amazon, we can actually create space in our lives to find other solutions that strengthen our bonds to our communities. It's not either boycott corporations or build community by supporting minority owned businesses. It's a bothand with each supporting the other.

Emily Williams: 01:07:58

A strong unified community is that much more powerful when it comes together to protest and boycott. And the health of our communities relies on the power wielded by a strong organized boycott. Let's take Earl's hope in the younger generation of leaders as a serious call to action, That we do have to take responsibility for building the world that we want to live in. We can't live in a bubble or think that just posting on social media is enough. We have to really learn the strategies to organize and hold systems accountable.

Emily Williams: 01:08:31

And then we can truly start doing the work of creating the world we all deserve. We want to hear from you. Did you participate in the boycotts against Target or other businesses who roll back their DEI practices? How are you thinking about using your money to support your community? Have you divested from using places like Amazon for convenience and started using more sustainable practices like book or clothing swaps?

Emily Williams: 01:08:58

Tell us on IG at Arcus Center or tell the world in your five star review of the show and help us grow our audience so we can keep bringing you episodes about the topics that matter to you. Many thanks to our guests, Nikki Porche and Earl Ofari Hutchinson for joining us and helping us talk through why multifaceted strategies for resistance are so important. You can find Earl at the hutchinsonreport.net, And you can find Nikki on IG at Nikki Porsche and on her website, nikkiporsche.com. That's P O R C H E R. If you liked this episode, don't hesitate to spread the word.

Emily Williams: 01:09:42

Share it on social media and let your friends and followers know about us. You can also visit us at arcuscenter.kzoo.edu and check out the important work we're doing with the next generation of social justice and human rights leaders. This episode of Beyond Voting was brought to you by the letter b for boycott and build. Until next week, thank you so much for listening. See you in the streets.

Emily Williams: 01:10:12

Beyond Voting is hosted by me, Emily Williams. Keisha TK Dutas is our executive producer. Kristen Bennett is our producer. And this episode was written by Kristen Bennett and me. Our sound designer and engineer is Manny faces.

Emily Williams: 01:10:29

Marketing is courtesy of Fabian Mickens. And our music is provided by Motion Array. Special thanks to my team at the Arcus Center for Social Justice Leadership, Quentin, Crimson, Tamara, Winter, and Cara. Beyond Voting is a production of Philos Future Media.