Democracy: The Illusion of Choice. Featuring Dr. Melina Abdullah and Madiba Denning
I'm Emily Williams, executive director of the Arcus Center For Social Justice Leadership at Kalamazoo College. This is Beyond Voting. We started this show for people like you and me, people who care about making a difference in the world, People who want to share in redesigning the democracy we deserve outside of the typical political binary. This podcast is rooted in our conviction that democracy requires more participation than just voting. It's up to all of us to take action if we wanna see real change.
Emily Williams:We'll feature conversations with leaders, activists, and educators discussing the state of our country's institutions, ongoing systems of oppression, and most importantly, how we, the people, can take critical actions in pursuit of true equity and justice. Welcome to our special post election edition of Beyond Voting. First, I wanna acknowledge the hurt, anger, and fear that many in our communities are facing after the results of this year's presidential election. Now is the time to remember that we have the tools to organize, form communities that care for each other, and fight back against harmful policies that we know will come in the near future. So please find your folks and make plans about how to care for one another.
Emily Williams:We need each other, and now is not the time to give into despair. This week's special guest is doctor Melina Abdullah, activist in 2024 vice presidential candidate with Cornel West for the justice for all party. But before we get into our interview, I thought it would be good to hear from someone who can help us understand the legal challenges and issues that had such a profound effect on our elections across the country and what laws could come into play as the new president takes office again. So I reached out to Madiba Denny, deputy editor of Balls and Strikes, an online legal magazine that analyzes and reports on the legal system and its inherent political and real world consequences. She's also the author of The Originalism Trap, How Extremists Stole the Constitution and How We, the People, Can Take It Back.
Emily Williams:Her writing has been featured in outlets including The Atlantic and The Washington Post. We knew we had to dig in quickly, so we did a lightning round of sorts to figure out which electoral laws help explain how we got here and if there's any hope those laws could yield a different outcome 4 years from now. Madiba, you ready?
Madiba Dennie:Let's do this.
Emily Williams:Okay. Let's jump right into it. You do a lot of work on representation. How is it that a country like the USA, that we have such an anti diversity president-elect? I mean, how could he be so openly hostile to our citizens and not be violating any anti discrimination law?
Madiba Dennie:I think that a lot of people unfortunately responded to the president elect's racist rhetoric and thought positively of his plans. The law and the government elected officials have often been a tool to act on some of the nation's worst impulses. So Trump is not new in this regard. We've had all sorts of discriminatory policies and presidents before. I think what's so awful and challenging now is the desire that folks have had to think that we were past this, to think that we were ready to move on and that like we have had the civil rights movement, we've had the Voting Rights Act.
Madiba Dennie:With that said, the Supreme Court also gutted the Voting Rights Act over the past 15 years or so in a number of cases, which makes it harder for people of color to participate freely, fully, and equally in the political process. And perhaps as a result, makes it easier for racist demagogues like Trump to win office.
Emily Williams:Yeah, definitely. Let's get into more legal stuff. In the days prior to election day, there were pivotal court decisions affecting voter eligibility. Right? You were just mentioning this.
Emily Williams:But in states like Virginia and Georgia and even potential voter disenfranchisement in Nevada. So what happened to state election laws between 2020 and now that helped cause this mess? And then, also, what are we going to have to work towards to reverse and restore these voting rights?
Madiba Dennie:Yeah. So the first thing I wanna point out is that voter fraud is vanishingly rare. It's it's not a not really an actual thing that affects the outcome of elections. But despite that being the case, when Trump lost the 2020 election, he kept lying all the time about how he was the real winner and there was this massive voter fraud that was responsible for his loss. And if if illegal ballot justify passing restrictive voter legislation saying well there's been all this voter fraud and so we need to make it harder for people to vote.
Madiba Dennie:I think they said, make it harder to cheat but what it was actually doing was just making harder for plenty of eligible people to vote. And they did this in a bunch of ways. One of the ones I think people are really familiar with are voter ID laws, but there are also things like voter purchase, like you saw in Virginia, like removing people from the voter rolls and having them try pull up a whole heap of documentation that they may not readily have access to all over again to prove that they are registered to vote. Or having to fill out complicated forms, I believe was like one of the things you saw in Arizona was like, oh, if you have this type of if you register on this particular form, you're allowed to use this ID, but if you don't, then you have to do another process. All of these things that sort of add confusion and make it harder on your average voters who actually exercise their right.
Madiba Dennie:And also things that aren't even, requirements for voters, but just things that logistically make it more challenging, like limiting the number of polling places, so then people wind up waiting for hours and hours in line. The state right now is escaping me, but I was reading just the other day about one state that had, like, a polling place per county. And, you know, some counties are very small, so it works out there. But other counties have, like, a1000000 people. So having just a polling place, like, is not going to adequately serve that population at all.
Madiba Dennie:So these are some of the ways that laws have changed in between the 2020 election and now that make it harder for people to vote and to have their votes count.
Emily Williams:Thank you. And that's so helpful to think through those kinds of details because we hear about it in the headlines, but we don't think about things like, well, if there's only one polling place per county and there's a 1000000 people in that county, of course, that's gonna block some people from voting. So we have places like Missouri enshrining abortion rights into the constitution, voting for a minimum wage hike, voting against pay increase for cops, but the state went to Trump. And in California, people voted against rent control, repealing slavery, and voted against the minimum wage hike, but the state went to Harris. How do they make sense of places like Missouri that supported left wing policies but still voted for a far right president?
Emily Williams:And then on the flip side, would we make up places like California that did the opposite?
Madiba Dennie:Yeah. This is something I have personally been struggling with as well, trying to make sense of it. In some ways, I think you just it's literally impossible to make sense of it and that floaters are not necessarily rational actors. We all sort of pretend that we have consistent beliefs, but not everybody does or not everybody does at all times. And so, you know, they can hold 2 conflicting thoughts in in in your head simultaneously.
Madiba Dennie:So part of that can I think can be explained by people just believe all sorts of stuff? But I think there are a couple other possible explanations as well. I think sometimes ballot language can be confusing. People don't necessarily understand what it is that they're voting for. And I think as a as a local example, I'm in New York and we had, an equal rights amendment on our ballot as a as a ballot initiative.
Madiba Dennie:And some folks were saying some some conservative people who were like anti career communities were saying, oh, vote against this to protect girls in sports. Whereas other people are like, no, we need to vote for this to protect abortion rights and protect trans people from discrimination on the basis of sex. So there are ways that people can spin the very same ballot proposal. And depending on what information you're exposed to, you might think it does something different than what it does, or you might not know how to understand it. I think that the information ecosystems that people live in are just so important because they're so siloed and so we wind up with people living in different universes basically, just operating under different sets of what they think are facts.
Madiba Dennie:Like there are no there are no shared facts anymore and I think that's a a real problem. And I think sort of similarly to that point about lack of information, I think some people might not have realized in places like Missouri, you know, they're like enshrining abortion and rights into their constitution. So they might think, we're good now. Abortion is safe now. And so I feel conservatively about other issues, but I wanna make sure that my reproductive health care is taken care of.
Madiba Dennie:So I think, oh, well, it's fine. I can I can vote for Trump and but I'll protect abortion rights in my state constitution? And they may not be cognizant that with Trump in office, they are going to pursue a nationwide abortion ban. And so I think that there is just a lack of information that can partially explain the kind of contradictory ballot positions we're seeing. I don't wanna sort of take away voters' agency.
Madiba Dennie:I don't wanna say, oh, they're just confused because I think a lot of people tragically, awfully did just choose fascism. I think they selected it with more or less awareness, but they knew, you know, Trump wasn't hiding who he was, and they chose that. So I don't wanna say that maybe if these voters were just better educated or something, they would have thought that. I think it's not it can't entirely be explained by education. But I do think that the information people are exposed to is at least part of it.
Emily Williams:Yeah. Yeah. And I agree with you on that. I think there's so much information that's available to people now. And also, I think with social media that there's also this notion that if you follow an influencer and they're sharing political ideas, that those things are true and they're not necessarily looking at, well, what are their biases?
Emily Williams:Right? Or what else could be true at the same time? And I think you make a really good point. We can't take away people's agency. Donald Trump has been telling us his plans.
Emily Williams:Project 2025 has been available for, you know, almost a year now. And so I think you're right that some people have chosen fascism, and and are okay with that or think that they stand to gain from that or stand to gain some protection from that. And we we can't forget that. And I think that's one of the most sober realities for a lot of people right now. Yeah.
Emily Williams:Alright, Madiba. Let's talk about the elephant in the room. Trump has been convicted of 34 felonies in New York state. He'll be sentenced sometime in the next 3 weeks, we think. Plus, there are pending trials and investigations.
Emily Williams:How does it work to have a president-elect that is a convicted felon? What's the likelihood that he'll be held accountable at all?
Madiba Dennie:I think it is vanishingly small. The more time goes on, I think time was always of the essence. And I think that enough of the people in charge of some of the, like, the electoral responses and investigations, I think they weren't fully cognizant of that, or I think they thought, oh, you know, I wanna do everything, like, buy the book and really take my time and build to be the big case, like, later, because which is sort of sort of like standard practice. Locking up, like, the little guys first and you work your way up to the kingpin. And that may be fine in, like, a run of the mill case, but when democracy itself is on the line, that doesn't work.
Madiba Dennie:You can't just sort of play around the edges and hope that things are still fine later. I think you need to take swift action, and that's not something that we saw. I think, like, a lot of these cases should have been resolved a long time ago. Trump has been committing crimes in public for a long time. Like, we didn't need to be still resolving things in 2024.
Madiba Dennie:So I think that is a a failure of the investigators and prosecutors and folks like that who are in charge. And I think that at least as far as federal offenses go, I find it really difficult to see how accountability can still happen at this point because once Trump enters the White House, he will probably just tell DOJ that's over now. That's finished. You were dropping any investigation into me. And if they refuse, he'll probably just fire them.
Madiba Dennie:So I am really uncertain as to what sort of federal recourse that there is. At the same time, Trump's convictions currently are in, New York state courts. So it is possible that states can still hold him responsible, or at least that they might try to still hold him responsible for various violations of state law. I'm not sure yet how that will play out because I think that it does still come down to political will at a certain point. I think we've seen instances like that, especially, you know, when you look at the federal investigation.
Madiba Dennie:Thinking a lot of the evidence was right there, but people weren't willing to act on it yet. So I don't know if that will be the case again when it comes to state law. But I think that, between the 2, between state courts and federal courts, I think state courts are probably where the higher chance of accountability is right now. Mhmm.
Emily Williams:And then would that prevent him from taking the presidency at this point, even if he were, you know, convicted at the state level?
Madiba Dennie:That's an excellent question. I mean, he has been convicted at the at the state level. He is a person with felonies. And to my knowledge, I don't think there's actually anything written in the constitution about that. Folks probably didn't think they had to worry about that as they were writing.
Madiba Dennie:That was just that did not cross their minds, or they thought that our institutions and checks and balances were strong enough that it wouldn't get to that point. Turns out they were mistaken. I can imagine a world where despite Trump's felony convictions, the court says something like, oh, but because you're president, we are suspending sentence or something. Or like or be like, because you're the president-elect, were you gonna do this, that, and the other? So I can see him skating by and like not actually experiencing real consequences.
Madiba Dennie:I would be deeply curious and fascinated to see if he does actually get, like, a a jail time sentence that any other person would get. I have no idea what happens then. Do you put secret service in jail too? Do you have him try to run the country from a prison cell? I have no idea.
Madiba Dennie:So I think we're in foreign territory here. I think this is pretty unprecedented.
Emily Williams:Definitely. Yeah. Well, I guess we have to wait and see on that one. Is there anything that we don't know that we need to understand about the outcome of this election? And how do you see that factoring into future elections?
Madiba Dennie:Well, I think that folks should familiarize themselves more. You mentioned project 2025 earlier. I think folks definitely need to know what's coming down the pike, and so that they can try starting to prepare themselves to either push back by law or otherwise. Otherwise, I'd be just taking whatever measures you can in your individual life to, like, protect yourself and the people around you. But also, you know, bringing bringing legal challenges to some of the things that the administration will try to implement.
Madiba Dennie:I think something I'm really concerned about and don't know about the future of right now is what any of this means for the legitimacy of the constitution at all, because Trump is constitutionally disqualified for the presidency. We have a whole amendment in the constitution about what we do with insurrectionists because we've done this before. And yet again, we had a white supremacist insurrection for the second time, and this time, the courts entirely well, I shouldn't say the courts. Some courts tried to follow it, but the Supreme Court ignored the constitution's unqualified command that a person who had taken an oath of office and then violated that oath by participating in an insurrection cannot hold office again. So now it's like that provision of the constitution is essentially nullified, and we have seen other attacks on those reconstruction amendments as well, whether by undercutting the Voting Rights Act, or by ending affirmative action, or by reversing Roe v Wade.
Madiba Dennie:All of those things were covered by the post Civil War amendments to the Constitution. And so I am deeply worried about the fate of those amendments and their their understanding. I think where we are right now is especially hard. We just took a big loss. But I personally find it useful to remember that this fight has been going on for a long time, and that people have secured wins in the wake of serious losses and serious hardships before.
Madiba Dennie:So what is happening now is not necessarily what will be happening in the future, what will always be happening. And I think that it's really important for us to remember that and not just sort of give in to doomerism. I think that's step 1, because if you don't do that, then you've already lost. And there's nothing that the fascists would love more than that, than for us to make their lives easier. So that's step 1.
Madiba Dennie:I think step 2 is connecting with people around us. Finding other people who share a commitment to a multiracial democracy. And if that commitment is not there yet, like working to build it among everyone we know. I think we start small, we start on the local level, especially since the federal apparatus is about to be even more weaponized. So I think that we do what we can close to home and try and try build that until until it's something larger, you know, whether working with like labor unions or other, sorts of like civil rights efforts.
Madiba Dennie:Finding what issue matters to us close to home and working on that and building up from there. I think those are probably our first two big steps.
Emily Williams:Yeah, definitely. And one of the things that I've seen already with some of the migrant rights groups in Chicago, they're already saying that they're going to stand up to any attempts at deportation or any attempts, at at violating the the human rights of the migrants, and they're calling for people to be in solidarity. And so I think that that's gonna have to be another huge step that people are gonna have to make is that even if if you yourself aren't a migrant, you gotta stand up for their human rights too. And we're gonna have to see that across groups as different groups are attacked in what's to come. Madiba, where can our listeners follow you and find your work?
Madiba Dennie:Well, so you can find my work in your local library or bookstore. I had an article come out earlier this year, The Originalism Trap, How Extremists Stole the Constitution and How We the People Can Take It Back. So a lot a lot more details in there on affirmative steps that people can take to to fight for multiracial democracy. And, I'm also the deputy editor and contributor at ballsandstrikes. So ballsandstrikes.org, check it out.
Madiba Dennie:A lot of writing there about the law written for non lawyers to understand.
Emily Williams:Wonderful. Wonderful. Madiba, thank you so much for breaking down all of the legal considerations in this moment.
Madiba Dennie:Thank you for having me.
Emily Williams:Madiba Denny, deputy editor of Balls and Stripes, and get her book, The Originalism Trap, How Extremists Stole the Constitution and How We the People Could Take It Back. This week's special guest is doctor Molina Abdullah, activist in 2024 vice presidential candidate with Cornel West for the justice for all party. She's professor of Pan African studies at Cal State LA's College of Ethnic Studies, cofounder of Black Lives Matter Los Angeles and Black Lives Matter Grassroots where she's also the director. She's a leader in the California Faculty Association, which is a faculty union and a mama of 3. Doctor Abdullah earned her PhD from University of Southern California in political science and her BA from Howard University in African American studies.
Emily Williams:Known by the moniker, doc Meli Mel, she's creator, host, and producer of the radio programs Move the Crowd on KPFK 90.7 FM and This is Not a Drill on KBLA Talk 1580. She's a recognized expert on race, gender, class and social movements and is also the 1st Muslim to run for the vice presidency. I invited doctor Abdullah to talk to us for a post election special because I wanted to hear about her experience on the campaign trail to get her take on the outcome of the election and learn what activists can do to further resist the deterioration of our rights. Doctor Molina Abdullah, thanks so much for joining us. Welcome.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:Thank you so much for having me.
Emily Williams:Congratulations on your run for vice presidency. It's so amazing that you did that. How are you feeling after having been on the campaign trail?
Dr. Melina Abdullah:Well, I thought I would get to take a nap after November 5th. That hasn't happened yet. I organized with Black Lives Matter Grassroots, and we have the, motto, vote and organize. And so giving the outcome of the election both locally, statewide, and nationally, We've had a lot of organizing to do, and so it feels like just as much work now as it was when we were in the midst of the race.
Emily Williams:Yeah. Yeah. I can imagine, and I could even see how it might even feel like more work now. What are your thoughts on how the election played out?
Dr. Melina Abdullah:Well, I live in Los Angeles, so I have a a lot of different feelings. When we talk about the presidency, you know, there's some complications around it. Right? That it is hugely revealing that the vast majority of white people voted for Donald Trump. I think it's telling about how deep racism is in this country.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:And what I mean by that is you cannot, not be a racist and cash your ballot for a blatant avowed racist like Donald Trump. So that's 70 something percent of white people, including 60 something percent of white women who cast their ballots from the for Donald Trump, I think, tell on themselves that they are racist. There there's no getting around it. They're they're racist. They're white supremacists.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:At the same time, I think the Democratic Party strategy was a failed strategy, at least in terms of winning, but it also told us a lot about who the Democratic Party is. That the Democratic Party didn't run a campaign that was serious. Right? What did the kids say? They were so unserious.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:They were so unserious that they thought it was good enough to trot out making Thee Stallion and Little John and, you know, Gorilla who I'd never even heard of until she came on the stage and
Emily Williams:J. Lo and Beyonce and Taylor Swift.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:Right. And the implication was that we should vote for her because of Vibes. Right? But I think the truth is that we're not voting for a president who arms Israel. We're not voting for a president who refuses to even discuss what real reparations looks like for black people.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:We're not voting for a president who won't raise the federal minimum wage. And so those are the things that I think lost the Democratic Party, this presidency. And, you know, I wanna be real clear that they lost by themselves. It wasn't third party candidates like ours. It was the Democratic party's failed strategy and that, you know, I think we should also be outraged that they kind of demanded our vote as if we owe it to them and they don't have to earn it.
Emily Williams:Yeah. I think you're right. Like, the sense of entitlement there. You know, we mentioned on previous episodes that there wasn't even a policy platform for a while after she started her campaign. And then when a policy platform came out, it was so difficult to distinguish from the Republican ticket.
Emily Williams:And so I think you're right. I think they overestimated how much likability would be a factor for Kamala Harris versus people's real understanding of what she intended to do with her policy.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:Right. And then she's gallivanting all around the country with I don't know if y'all cuss on here, but I wanna cuss with Liz Cheney. Like, what are you doing? You're celebrating the endorsement of a war criminal like Dick Cheney. Are you kidding me?
Dr. Melina Abdullah:Right. And we're supposed to say, okay, we're still gonna vote for her. No. No. You're showing who you are.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:You're showing who you are.
Emily Williams:Exactly. And at the same time that for so many people in the country, their red line was what's happening in Gaza right now. And for her to, you know, not even address that, she didn't even go to Dearborn, Michigan, which is the largest Arab population in the u US or the 2nd largest. Yeah. Those things seem to be either some gross miscalculations or a sense of entitlement in arrogance perhaps about what the majority of Americans will accept.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:Right. Refuse to let even one Palestinian speaker on the stage at the DNC, you know, just kind of laughed and smiled when she was protest that should have been an indicator. Everywhere she went, there were free Palestine protesters. And she told them she started off by telling people to shut up. Right?
Dr. Melina Abdullah:Started off by telling people to shut up and then, you know, kind of toned it down when that didn't play well, but never addressed that this is a US taxpayer funded genocide being carried out on at least a 100000 Palestinian people. Right? They found the bodies of 50,000, but we know that there's at least double that buried under the rubble.
Emily Williams:And I think the other underestimation was that, yes, everything you said about what's happening in Gaza and that the majority of Americans care. You know, I think that they thought perhaps Americans wouldn't care. They wouldn't care as much, given what they believe was at stake with Donald Trump being her opponent.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:Right. That's stupid to think that. Right? Are you not paying attention to the fact that every university in this country has been in upheaval since, you know, for the last 14 months? You'd have to just have your eyes completely closed to not realize what an issue it is that we've been shutting down not only university campuses, but streets in every major city.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:Right? What happened at the Oscars? Right? That for her to not pay attention, it was either a game of chicken and that's what it feels like. I dare you to vote for someone else or it was just stupid.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:And I think it was probably a little bit of both, but mostly the former. It was a game of chicken and I think that was offensive to many voters that you're not listening to us and you're saying that I don't have a choice but to vote for you. And that's why you saw some people not voting for top of ticket. Some people voting for 3rd party and some people staying home altogether.
Emily Williams:Right. And that's why I'm so happy that you and doctor West ran because I think you all's platform is actually what people want. So why did you run and what was it like being on the campaign trail as a vice presidential candidate?
Dr. Melina Abdullah:So I ran because doctor West invited me to because I always said I would never ever ever run for office. I would never run for office because I prefer one of the reasons why I was trying to struggle to get on today is I like to yell at elected officials. Right? I like to speak from my authentic voice. I don't wanna have to tone it down for political likability.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:I don't want to have to mute who I am even now kind of coming out of the campaign space. One of the things that happened recently is I haven't been able to, talk about like silly things that I like to talk about. Right? Because that's not not that I was trying to be vice presidential, but it it didn't feel right given the campaign. Right?
Dr. Melina Abdullah:So, you know, I I went on a little diatribe last night about how about my dating life. I wouldn't have done that if I were still running. Right. Or my non existent dating life. Right.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:I posted on Facebook. I was sitting on the couch wishing I had somebody until I realized that if I did, I would have to put on a bra. Right? Put on a bra and brush my hair, and I don't like doing those things when I'm at home. Right?
Emily Williams:Right. Right. But a good like, such a good reminder that vice presidential candidates are humans too. You know? And we have just regular human things.
Emily Williams:So I shouldn't say we, but you have regular human things going on in your life and considerations. Right. Right. But it's it's like such a demonstration of practicing your politics. Did that influence your decision to run?
Dr. Melina Abdullah:Well, what really made me run is I've been deeply inspired by Cornel West, really my entire adult life.
Emily Williams:Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:And it was just so I was inspired also by his platform. So I was a huge when he announced he was running, you know, I was all in. I was all in. And so when I was invited to be his vice presidential nominee, his running mate, my heart soared because I believe in truth, justice, and love. I believe in those policy pillars that have, you know, full understandings of what gender justice looks like and doesn't just limit it to abortion rights, but talks about things like period justice.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:And, you know, when we talk about gender justice, we're talking about gender expansive justice. That we're talking about, yeah, the right to abortion, but also there's economic questions that sometimes force people to make decisions that they might not wanna make. So there's an obligation society has to say it should really be your choice. And if you choose to have a child, this world will take care of it. Right?
Emily Williams:Right.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:And so for me, my decision to run really was based on the beautiful campaign that I'd never seen exist anywhere else. And, then I checked in with my children and my children were all in. I checked in with my mama and my parents were all in, checked in with my organizing community, and they were all in. And that's what made the decision. So I imagined that we would have an opportunity.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:I heard the voice of Charlotta Bass, who's the first black woman to run for vice president. And, she said, win or lose, we win by raising the issues. And I had these imaginings of really traveling the country and getting to speak about things like gender justice about I wanted to speak about what it meant that we're abolitionist candidates and what that means. And, you know, summon in mama Harriet Tubman in that conversation that, you know, abolitionism isn't something to be afraid of. It's something to be hopeful Unfortunately, what I didn't anticipate is how much of the work would have to be done to gain ballot access.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:So we got to spend much less time on the ideas we developed and on the platform that we were building and instead got really sucked into having to challenge the corporate owned duopoly and get on the ballot in the first place.
Emily Williams:Yeah. And we talked with Rosa Clemente earlier in the season and she talked a bit about that too, how that's such a challenge. But what did you all hope to accomplish in this election? And did you all accomplish what you hoped? And then also just so curious to know about, like, what you all see for the justice for All Party going forward because it is such a powerful platform and it really does center justice for all.
Emily Williams:And I believe so many people in this country actually want that, actually want what's included in your platform.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:Well, we accomplished some of what we hope to accomplish which is raising the issues right that I believe we were instrumental in kind of amplifying voices that came from the ground voices around free Palestine, around ending a genocide, around stopping the funding of war through US tax dollars. I think that I never heard anyone speak about how to not be a superpower, but a nation among nations is how doctor West talked about it. Right? I think that we've done a good job of bringing together folks. An unintended, unanticipated consequence for me is as a black Muslim.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:We've seen a lot of coming together of Muslim community. I've been in conversation with non black Muslims a lot more than I ever been. And, you know, for me, it was just a beautiful kind of demonstration of what Ummah, what Muslim community can be. So we've accomplished some of that. There's so much more to do.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:So, you know, I think had we had ballot access, if that had been a given and we just got into campaign, we'd have been able to do a lot more. And I think that's the role of the Justice for All party is that we have to disrupt the corporate owned duopoly and we have to usher in real democracy, the kind of democracy that only comes when you have more options, viable options on the ballot.
Emily Williams:Yeah. 100%, and I think the majority of Americans agree with you on that because according to a recent Gallup poll, 58% of Americans that were polled believe that the US needs a 3rd party because the major the 2 major parties do such a poor job of representing the American people. Does it seem like more people were open to third party voting in 2024? And what is it about your policies that you think is attractive to voters?
Dr. Melina Abdullah:Yeah. I think more people are open to 3rd parties and 4th parties and 5th parties. We should whole have a whole plethora of options. Right? That's what the promise of democracy is.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:That's not what we have. Right? That's not what we have. And, you know, we haven't had money in this campaign. Right?
Dr. Melina Abdullah:We haven't had very much money at all. And we're facing opponents that have limitless money. The new number that we have is that the Democratic Party spent at least $22,000,000 to keep us off the ballot. That's a lot of money. Right?
Dr. Melina Abdullah:I mean, Kamala Harris raised what a $1,000,000,000 in a month. Yep. We raised for only a fraction of that in the whole 17 month campaign. I think the new number is like we raised about a $1,000,000 over the 17 month period. That is not enough to beat back, you know, what they have.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:It's not enough to beat back what they have.
Emily Williams:But it also says it also communicates, like, the threat that they perceive you all as. Right? So
Dr. Melina Abdullah:Yeah. No. Absolutely. That the Democratic party belies its name. Right?
Dr. Melina Abdullah:Like, they're the most undemocratic party you can imagine that they should want more options on the ballot, not fewer.
Emily Williams:Exactly. And I think it also, like, demonstrates that they know that there is power in your policy platform and that people actually are attracted to those kinds of policies even though they themselves are not willing to entertain them.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:Right. I think one of the beautiful things so we haven't had money to run our own polls. Right? But what we have had is, you know, we said this is a people powered campaign. So our strategy is if you don't have money, and I'm an organizer, if you don't have money, you use your people power.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:And so what we told all of our folks who were working with us, who were inspired by us is, you know, do whatever you want as long as it's legal and righteous. We're not going to micromanage what you do. And some of our volunteers who we call love warriors were doing really incredible things. So doctor Richard Rose, who's one of the founders of the Justice For All party in California, You know, a lot of his work to get people to sign up for Justice For All Party included tabling outside of homeless shelters. And he said, one of the people who went with him, Brother Billion, said, well, they said we need to register 73,000 people under justice for all in California in order to have valid access.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:There's 60,000 unhoused people on the streets right now. So if we can get all of them to register, then there we go. And, you know, we didn't get 60,000 people to register. But I love that Brother Billian and Doctor. Rose both knew that we have the kind of platform that would resonate with unhoused folks.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:Right? Brother Billion himself says he never he hasn't voted since 1992 when he was duped into voting for President Clinton. And, you know, then Clinton comes out with these horrible policies that target Black people. And so he didn't wanna vote after that. And we're the first time that he voted.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:And so I think that we're resonating because we're willing to say things like housing can be a universal right. Education should be free. Forget the loan forgiveness. Right? There should be loan forgiveness, but really it needs to be much more than that.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:It needs to be free in the first place so you don't have to take out a loan. And that's pre k through PhD. Right? Right.
Emily Williams:Right.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:And so people are inspired by that. And, you know, we also opened up our policy pillars and, like, elicited ideas and said, well, what do you want? We've been in conversation with Stopcop City and Stopcop Nation Organizers. We've been in conversation with those in Muslim communities who want to absolutely end the genocide and also are talking about Muslim bans and the targeting of Muslims in this country and how do we push back against that. We are talking to people again, my organizing home is Black Lives Matter Grassroots, and I know it's not popular to still say black lives matter, but forget that black lives still matter.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:Right? And we have to stand up against police abuse and stop the expansion of policing and militarized policing. And so those are all things that people weighed in on and helped us as we developed our policy pillars.
Emily Williams:Mhmm. And what are your thoughts on the role that identity politics played in this election? And to be clear, you know, not just, like, marginalized identities, but also white identity, male, straight, Christian, cisgender, etcetera.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:Well, white people showed us again that they're deeply racist. Right? White people, they're the only group who voted for Trump in the majority. I think it's offensive that the Democratic party kind of was trying to shame black voters into voting for Kamala Harris as if black men who didn't vote for Kamala Harris, it was a demonstration of their misogyny when I don't think it was. I think that the black men who didn't vote for Kamala Harris didn't vote for Kamala Harris because she didn't give them a policy platform that they believed it.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:Right? And even though black people supported her more than any other group, black women first followed by black men, It doesn't mean that there wasn't some skepticism and some disillusionment with what was put forward. And so identity politics was exploited, I think, by the Democratic Party, but also identity politics played a real role in the white supremacist vote for Donald Trump.
Emily Williams:Yeah. Yeah. So the Justice for All's party policy platform is really inspiring. One of the things that I think about a lot is, how do we let go of what we think of as normal? For example, things like health care tied to your job or this idea of, like, endless wars, which is actually pretty normal in the US, or a bloated budget for the police.
Emily Williams:How do you persuade people to move beyond our survival mindset to one that actually centers care and thriving when it comes to supporting policies that would actually have a positive effect on our day to day lives?
Dr. Melina Abdullah:Well, what I think is really beautiful about this campaign is it's tied to movement. Right? I don't think any campaign cycle is enough to move people. It has to be constant organizing, right? It has to be that we're sowing seeds constantly in order to move people along.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:And I think this campaign, my organizing work, and then of course, Doctor. West decades of work in things around things like ending genocide and free Palestine even before, you know, last year's most recent iteration set the stage for it. So we're not just introducing these ideas to people for the first time and then intend to go in the House on November 6th. This is connected to movement. So we understand that electoral politics are but one form of the way in which we empower people.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:It's one tool in our toolbox, but it's not the only tool. So you know, if you think about like Adrienne Maree Brown saying that you can only move at the speed of trust, Well, trust is built over time. And so one of the things we've been able to do is because we've both been and, of course, Doctor. West having decades more in the work than I do. Right?
Dr. Melina Abdullah:But we've both been on the ground for a very long time and understand where movement is going. And it doesn't mean that everybody's already there, but we understand how to lay out these ideas that don't come solely from us. Remember, we built our policy pillars in conversation with other organizers and movement on the ground. And so in doing so, we're presenting these ideas and trying to grow movement, trying to make sure that people can plug in. Some people will plug in for the first time through the campaign, but they'll stay involved
Madiba Dennie:as
Dr. Melina Abdullah:a result of the work. I'll give an example. 1 of our love warriors, Eduardo, I got to meet him through the campaign. He's Los Angeles based. But every Wednesday as an organizer with Black Lives Matter Los Angeles, we go and protest the police associations, which are not unions and are our avowed enemies.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:Right? We protest outside of what I call the Legion of Doom. It's their headquarters. Right? Well, every Wednesday Eduardo is with us.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:He comes with us. He comes to the organizing meetings and, you know, he's part of the work beyond electoral politics work at this point. And that's what we're hoping to do, that there is an electoral strategy, but it's part of a much larger movement. Doctor. West always talks about this being but a moment in a movement.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:It's a moment in a movement.
Emily Williams:And that's such a smart strategy to base your policy platform in movements and social movements. Because when I look at your policy platform, I can think of movements, especially on the local level around all of those issues. And so it it's smart to form a party around those issues almost as like a could have, like, a unifying effect for those smaller movements.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:Right.
Emily Williams:You know, activists have been expressing that they feel like people are being coerced into voting for genocide and continued complacency, at least with the 2 mainstream parties. Do you think that we can actually create change without the discomfort of rejecting the status quo?
Dr. Melina Abdullah:No. That would be ridiculous. That those are 2 opposite ideas. Right? Status quo and change.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:Status quo means keeping what you have. Right? So you cannot create change without disrupting the status quo, and there'll be backlash as a result of your refusal to go along with the status quo. The question becomes, is what you envision as change worth it? And for me, and I still can't speak about it too deeply without crying, but I'm a mother of 3 children.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:And for me, I can't vote for genocide. I just can't. I can't vote for genocide. And, you know, my children, my God, my people, they won't allow me to. That it's a betrayal.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:When I was first announced as Cornel West running mate, this sister who's in clergy, and I won't say her name, but she was really excited about the candidacy. And she said, you know, I endorse you. She was at the 1st fundraiser that someone held for me was women, you know, all women. Right? And she was there, and she was excited.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:And then when Joe Biden stepped back and Kamala Harris was announced, she texted me and said, I'm sorry. I got to go with Kamala Harris. And I said, Okay. And I, you know, I was of the feeling that we can't condemn especially the black people who did that. Right?
Emily Williams:Mhmm.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:You should talk to them about why that's not a good choice. Right? But we can't condemn them. And so I said, okay. And I just kind of let her do her thing.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:But yesterday we had a conversation. So she started right after the election and a lot of people did this. The day after the election, I lost a 1000 followers on Instagram. And she, who I know, right, who's been to these protests against police associations, who said that she was inspired to do her work because of Black Lives Matter work and the work that many of us, including me, have done, who calls herself an abolitionist, who had been prior to Kamala Harris's announcement, speaking out against genocide. She started what I deemed to be trolling my page.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:Right? Jumping in the comments and saying really kind of disrespectful things. And so, you know, I get back in the comments because my my skin is not that thin. Right? So I get in the comments and I'm like, oh, that's what we doing now.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:Wrong women trolling each other's pages. Right? And then I texted her and I was like, if you have something to say, say it. You have my number. Right?
Dr. Melina Abdullah:Mhmm. So she called me yesterday morning And we're on the phone and she said, well, I don't understand the strategy of 3rd parties. And I'm thinking number 1, you live in California. It's not even that big a risk. The state was gonna go Democrat anyway.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:So you're not in a swing state where it even makes sense for you to vote for Kamala Harris, like pragmatically. Right? But 2, your clergy who were speaking out against the genocide in Gaza. And what? Because Kamala Harris went to Howard.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:I went to Howard. Right? Because Kamala Harris went to Howard and can put up her pinky as can I? Right? That now the genocide doesn't matter.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:And she said to me, I understand there's a genocide and all of that, but I don't think we should vote against democracy. And that's what we got a lot of.
Madiba Dennie:Mhmm.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:Like people who completely set aside what they said they believed in for the vibes. Right? For the, you know, nods to culture, not for substance. And I think that we can't afford to betray our values. And there's also the proclaimed pragmatism
Madiba Dennie:of
Dr. Melina Abdullah:it all. Right? So some people will say, well, it's easier to push the Democrat than it is to push the Republican. Both of them are avowed genociders. Kamala Harris said, I stand unwaveringly on the side of Israel.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:And I hope that we can go back and reassess what it is we say we believe in and see if our votes were in line with that.
Emily Williams:Yeah. And I think also when people are saying we have to vote, like, on the side of democracy or protect democracy, I think also conflated within that is my comfort and my quality of life and my, you know, personal freedoms. Right? I think people are we're also that's wrapped up in democracy for people when they think about democracy in the US, because democracy in the US certainly does not translate to democracy everywhere else in the world as we can see by the the current policy in Gaza.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:Well, I think you said something really important, Emily, and that's that it's also the comfort of who you're voting for. Right? That it's uncomfortable to say I'm voting for a 3rd party when everything has happened to try to whip you into a frenzy of excitement around the Democratic nominee or the Republican nominee. Right? To go against what everyone is telling you to do is uncomfortable.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:Mhmm. So that question of comfort that you're raising, I think resonates on a whole lot of levels.
Emily Williams:Definitely. And I think it would have been really uncomfortable for a lot of people to have fully endorsed a 3rd party candidate and then to have to live with the potentially undesirable results, which I guess any of the results really could have been undesirable. But I think particularly people are are really grappling with the results that we got with this current outcome.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:Look, nobody was more relieved than me when we saw the data that if you put all the 3rd party candidate votes together, it still wouldn't have won Kamala Harris, the presidency. I was going, phew. Nobody can blame me because I was prepared to take the blame.
Emily Williams:Right? Right. And I was happy that people did that math early on so that, you know, the major networks couldn't even start to blame the 3rd parties, you know, or even start to blame, you know, black folks for not voting. So I was happy that that math came out early. Right.
Emily Williams:That's right. That's right. So although people can vote for president in every state, we know that voters in actually 6 swing states effectively decide who becomes president, and we definitely saw the swing states in action in this election. So but that's not democracy either. You know?
Emily Williams:And most of us want things to change so that we feel our votes actually count, and we have historical precedent that things can change. Like, we used to have 3rd parties, and we used to pick the VP in a different way. So how do we convince people that we can keep changing the system to better serve our needs?
Dr. Melina Abdullah:Well, people don't even understand how the current system works. Right? True. So to reveal the injustice of the current system, you have to show people. I mean, we do a terrible job of civics training.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:Right?
Madiba Dennie:Right.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:I mean, people, I think, have heard of the electoral college, but don't really understand. People don't understand. I never and my PhD is in political science. Right?
Madiba Dennie:Mhmm.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:I never heard the term ballot access until this last 7 months. I had no idea. I thought I was really doing something because I haven't voted for a Democrat for president since '08. Right? So I voted.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:I got caught up in kind of a heavier version of what just happened with Barack Obama's candidacy. Right? That that will I am song came on in that little video and everybody chanting, yes, we can. And even though I knew I believed in Cynthia McKinney and Rosa Clemente, and I tell her this all the time that I'm sorry. Right?
Dr. Melina Abdullah:Because Rosa is my dear friend. Right? I did not cast my ballot for what I believed in. Right? I cast my ballot for Barack Obama, my California ballot for Barack Obama.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:And then he comes and he does his first term and there's nothing in it for black people or working class people. And you got, you know, drones, strikes and war and I'm going, what was I doing? And I wasn't stupid. I had read the Audacity of Hope. I knew that he was a neoliberal.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:Right. I knew he wasn't, you know, Malcolm X and Barack Obama's clothing. Right? I knew that, but I still cast my ballot for Barack Obama. But after 08, I didn't do that again.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:And I thought I was doing something when I would write in Angela Davis for president.
Madiba Dennie:Mhmm.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:Not realizing that those write in votes don't count unless your candidate is certified as a write in candidate. So even if, you know, Angela Davis had gotten millions of votes, she still wouldn't be president. Right? So this campaign has taught me how closed this so called democracy is and how fully bought this illusion of democracy is, that it's wholly owned by capitalist corporate interests, white supremacist interests. And so we do need and require a new system for electing who leads us.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:I don't know how many people have ever even read Lani Guinier's tyranny of the majority. But, you know, the idea of ranked choice voting and proportional representation, let alone undoing the electoral college. Why do we need an electoral college? Right?
Emily Williams:Well, that's tied to white supremacy. Right? Absolutely. You know, it dates back to slavery.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:Yep. Absolutely. And so what we have to people are always shocked when we say, well, you know, the Republican Party used to be a 3rd party. And they're like, wait, what? Right.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:These weren't always the only 2 parties and one of them used to be a 3rd party. And then when I talked to them about my, my oldest child is in South Africa and, they just had their presidential elections earlier this year and there were 10 viable candidates on that ballot. And how new is South Africa as a democracy? Right? That's in my adulthood that happens.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:Right? Mhmm. And so how dare we call ourselves the UIS call ourselves a democracy when every other nation in the world is really out doing us, outperforming us in terms of democracy and choice?
Emily Williams:100%. And it's, you know, it's no secret that we're living in deeply divided times. Sometimes it feels like there's so much going on around us that we're, like, we are living in the eye of the storm, and it certainly we certainly are living in the belly of the beast. Almost everyone we talk to acknowledges the tension, the anxiety, the despair that people have around politics right now. It feels like something has to give soon or this is, like, gonna break.
Emily Williams:So you spent the last year campaigning across the country and talking to people. Do you feel like we're on the precipice of something significant?
Dr. Melina Abdullah:So let me be clear. We don't have no money, so I didn't really campaign all across the country. We did a lot of zooming and then some flights on my Rapid Rewards points on Southwest. Right? We didn't have I I thought, you know, because we made the ballot in Alaska and I thought, oh, well, at least go to the states where we're on the ballot, printed on the ballot.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:And I was like, Alaska, here we come. Nope. Didn't get to go to Alaska. Right. Got to zoom only with Washington state.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:I did get to go to Colorado and Louisiana, but Louisiana was because I also have a child who's at Southern University. And so I, you know, was able to move her in and then talk to some people while I was there. So there is an interest in expanding democracy. So the Zoom calls did teach me something. Right?
Dr. Melina Abdullah:There is an interest in expanding democracy. There is a disease with the idea of having to vote for a lesser of 2 evils or evil heavy and evil light. Right? People don't like that. Even the ones who voted for Kamala Harris or and this is where I think that it was really intellectually lazy for people to say that the Black men who voted for Donald Trump did so because they were misogynists.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:I know some of them. Some of them are people I organize with and there's another one who's like one of my dearest friends. And I think that he didn't wind up actually voting for him, but he was considering voting for him. Right? And I think that they misunderstood because they had no desire to understand.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:They only had the desire to shame. But the brothers that I talked with who were either considering voting for Trump or did actually vote for Trump, The comrade that actually voted for Trump. His name is Kevin. You know, he didn't vote for Trump because he believed in Trump. He didn't vote for Trump because he doesn't like women.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:He voted for Trump because he kept saying we got to make the Democratic Party pay. Right? And that's what he saw nationally, but also in California. Black people are deeply wounded around the legislative Black Caucus and their betrayal of Black community and refusing to pass real reparations. That just happened at the end of August.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:And so, you know, this is what Comrade Kevin, you know, wound up doing, but it wasn't a vote for the agenda of Donald Trump. He just didn't see another. He said that our, that we're not gonna win. Right? So he was like, well, what's the most viable way of making the Democrats pay?
Dr. Melina Abdullah:And he's still my friend. I'm not mad at him. Right? But this is what they were talking about. Right?
Dr. Melina Abdullah:That they were deeply upset. And this is not just Kevin, but everyone that I talked with, especially Black men, are angered around the notion that we don't have real choice. And so I see, you know, black people, black men included, but the black women who voted for Harris, most of them tried to justify why they were voting for Harris, but knew in their souls it was wrong. I have a sister who lives in Georgia who, voted for Harris, even though I'm her sister. Right?
Dr. Melina Abdullah:But she, you know, Georgia was one of those states that was up for grabs. And I think she would have voted for Cornel West and I if she were still living in California. But she wound up voting for Harris and still doesn't feel good about it. And so I think Black people have always been, I keep maybe Lani Bonier's spirit is present, but Lani Bonier wrote a book that talks about black people as the miner's canary. Right?
Dr. Melina Abdullah:And so, black people, even though we overwhelmingly voted for Harris, we also are the most civically engaged people and the people most likely to protest. And what I have seen and witnessed and conversed with people about is how absolutely upsetting and frustrating and it almost makes us feel impotent that these are the two choices that are presented and we want something more.
Emily Williams:Yeah. Absolutely. 100%. I I agree with you on that. You know, the feeling of impotence and wanting something more, but not believing that it's possible.
Emily Williams:I think that's true for the majority of people in this country. And I'm struck by your conversation or, with brother Kevin, your friend who voted for Trump, you know, partially because it's like, I understand the desire, like, the deep desire to create accountability for a party that continues to ignore your community and take your community for granted election after election after election. But do you think that we need to move in a direction where we're actually becoming, we're in community with people who have different politics than our own and trying to build bridges to people of different politics?
Dr. Melina Abdullah:So I don't disagree with Kevin, politically. Like, our politics are 90% aligned. I think that was the most ridiculous strategy in the world. Right? So we are both anti genocide, you know, free Palestine.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:We are both reparations over just about everything. We are both defund the police. We have the same politics. I just think his strategy was misguided. Right?
Dr. Melina Abdullah:I'm not interested in building bridges with people who are so politically out of line with me that it's a betrayal of my values. Right? I'm not interested in building bridges with people who say middle finger to Palestinians. Right? And there are lots of folks who say that.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:I'm not interested in building bridges with people who aspire to be predatory capitalists. I'm not interested in that. I am interested in having conversations about what is the best strategy and building towards that strategy. So the reason Kevin is still my friend, and I'll probably see him at our organizing meeting on Sunday, is I think that we can have conversation about why that's a bad strategy. Don't do that again, Kevin.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:Right. And we're not going to do that with the California legislature either. We're not going to go for the Republican just because they're challenging the legislative Black Caucus that, betrayed the Black community. Maybe the answer is to primary the skin folk who ain't kin folk. Right?
Dr. Melina Abdullah:And get one of our own in. I believe the strategy for the presidency is to get such a mass of folks behind a Cornell West campaign that we really are viable and we really do pose a threat and not just a threat because they don't want our message out a threat because we are an electoral threat. Right? And so I think building strategies together, is important in 7 months for me, which is the length of time I was in the campaign, wasn't enough time to do that. And we didn't have the infrastructure to do that.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:Right. That there was with no money. That means there's no campaign staff. And when you talk about volunteers, you can't force volunteers to do stuff because they got jobs and, you know, children to look after and all of that and community to build. And so, we didn't have the kind of infrastructure that we needed.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:Hopefully, as we build this party, Justice For All party, we'll be able to build up some resources over time. We'll be able to capitalize on all the people power we actually have and do that over time. And then we can build strategy that's much more aligned with our belief systems.
Emily Williams:Yeah. Yeah. I like that. And I like that focus on strategy. Okay, Melina.
Emily Williams:Get us excited for your next run-in 2028.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:No. No. What? No. I have no political ambition, but it doesn't have to be me.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:So I do believe in an electoral strategy. And I think it's really important. You know, one of the things that happened during this campaign is politically the candidates we were most aligned with were Claudia and Corina. And I think part of the reason we were most aligned with them is like Doctor. West and I, they're also organizers.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:Right? So over the next 4 years, but also in the previous prior to any of us even thinking about running, we had been in organizing community together. I think my role and what I appreciate doing and where my heart is, is really organizing. And I think that we all recognize, and I don't want to speak for Claudia and Karina's campaign, but I think that what they've demonstrated is they also recognize that there's an electoral strategy that has to be part of a much larger movement. So I wanna continue and I'm committed to continuing to be a part of a much larger movement, recognizing that electoral politics is one tool in it.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:I hope we can find people to run at the local level and state level, and we can talk about ballot access. There's a lot of possibility around fusion voting and using some of these smaller parties that do have ballot access. And now Justice For All party does have valid access in a few states. How do we run people in those places? And those people who run don't have to be me.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:I, again, don't have any ambition to run for office. I like what I do. I love getting in the classroom. And I love, again, I'm just coming back from city council meeting where I get to flip off the new police chief nominee who I think was just confirmed. Right?
Dr. Melina Abdullah:I like doing that. I like doing that.
Emily Williams:Okay. I hear that. So let's just say that there's another young person who comes in and runs as a candidate on the Justice For All platform. Let's say that they're successful and that they actually win. How do you advise them during their time, let's say, in the White House?
Emily Williams:How would our country look different after 4 years of having a justice for all candidate in the house of the people?
Dr. Melina Abdullah:So my grandmother, like many grandmothers, used to say, you have to know not just who you are, but whose you are. Right? And any justice for all party candidate belongs to the people. Right? We don't want any candidates who are running because they want, you know, a title in front of their name or they want to go down in history books.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:We want them to run because they know that's a way to make meaningful change and usher in a platform that's really a people's platform. I'm witnessing here, and I don't mean to sideline it, but part of what's happening here in Los Angeles with the naming of this terrible police chief who is commanding a salary of about a half a $1,000,000 a year when he already gets taxpayer dollars in retirement funds of 270,000 a year. Right? And then another 30,000 a year in an additional pension. So he's gonna cost taxpayers 800,000 a year.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:That said, we could expect that from Jim McDonnell. Right? Jim McDonnell is terrible. He is the definition of what policing is. He's a new millennial slave catcher.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:But who named him Police Chief? Karen Bass. Karen Bass, who was a progressive. Karen Bass, who knows better, who was a community organizer. But then it got in her head that she should run for office.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:She runs for state legislature, becomes the first black woman speaker of the assembly, and then runs for Congress, and then throws her name in the hat for consideration as Biden's vice president and finally runs for mayor and wins as the first woman mayor of the city of Los Angeles, 2nd largest city in the country. Right? She forgot not just who she is, but whose she is. She no longer belongs to the people. Right?
Dr. Melina Abdullah:She belongs to her donors. I wrote the first scholarly pieces on her. And she used to be my very, very good friend. She used to talk about what it meant that she was a red diaper baby. She used to talk about those things and now she is beholden to her donors so much so that she refuses to speak out against genocide.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:That she's actually criminalizing the young people who dare to speak out. She's actually passing city ordinances that make it illegal to protest for life in Palestine. So my advice to anybody running for office that you have to constantly remain grounded with the people to whom you belong. That's also my advice to organizers. I don't believe in independent organizers.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:Right? So if you want to see who betrays community and could be called what do they call them? Grifters. Right? It's people who don't have an organizing community to answer to.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:If you don't answer to anybody, then you will be betrayers of the people that goes for elected officials. That goes for organizers. That goes for everybody. And so my greatest piece of advice is you gotta belong to the community rather than be in it for your own ambition.
Emily Williams:Yeah. Definitely. Thank you so much for giving us that wisdom to end with. And doctor Abdullah, this has been wonderful. You know, we're so proud of you for having run and for continuing this movement with the justice for all party and really giving us that platform to work with.
Emily Williams:I know that people are gonna gravitate towards that policy platform in the years to come as we put up alternatives to what we will inevitably see play out in the White House over these next couple of years. So, again, thank you so much, and we were just we're so happy to have had you.
Dr. Melina Abdullah:Thank you so much for having me.
Emily Williams:Wow. Can you imagine running for vice president in this most recent election? It's truly amazing and admirable how Doctor. Abdullah has lived her politics over the last 7 months. She's a real organizer.
Emily Williams:Thanks to doctor Molina Abdullah for this important urgent and critical conversation. And thanks again to Madiba Denny of Balls and Strikes for joining us earlier. We started with the lightning round, so I'm gonna end with a lightning round of my takeaways and insights from our conversations. I don't know if you know this, but the Republican Party was once a third party. They only became viable when Lincoln abolished slavery.
Emily Williams:That means that abolition is what allowed them to become more viable and continue to win elections. So the justice for all parties policies are not far fetched. Focuses like racial justice, ending wars, immigration justice, LGBTQIA rights and more are based on the social movements already happening right now across the country. People are listening. People believe it's possible on the local level, and it's going national.
Emily Williams:More of us need to believe it's possible, and we can make it possible by joining the movements we believe in. We are so grateful for all our guests that joined us this season. But most of all, we wanna thank you, our listeners, and everyone who supported, reviewed, and shared our podcast with their friends, families, and neighbors. And if you haven't already shared the podcast with everyone you know, you still have time. Your support this season and your continued support means the world to us, and it's an important part of the work that helps shape the democracy that we deserve.
Emily Williams:So thank you. And until next season, see you in the streets. Beyond voting is hosted by me, Emily Williams. Keisha TK Doutaz is our executive producer. Kristen Bennett is our producer.
Emily Williams:And this episode was written by Kristen Bennett and me. Our sound designer and engineer is Manny Faces. Marketing is courtesy of Fabian Mickens, and our music is provided by Motion Array. Special thanks to my team at the Arcus Center For Social Justice Leadership, Quentin, Crimson, Tamara, Winter, and Cara. Beyond voting is a production of Filo's Future Media.