Emily Williams:Welcome back everyone.

We are so glad you joined us.

On our last episode, we talked to uncommitted DNC delegate,

Esam Boraey, about working within the confines

of our two-party political system.

And we examined that through the lens

of the uncommitted movement.

Esam shared his frustration and disappointment

with the Democratic Party's leadership

and their unwillingness to be moved on the situation in Gaza.

That's despite multiple attempts

from those in the uncommitted movement

to engage the Democratic Party on its terms.

Esam told us that while he won't have his vote

taken for granted by the party's candidates,

he still feels that the Democratic Party

is his political home and the best place for him

to work for change.

But that's not the case for many others

who no longer feel that the Democratic

or Republican parties best represent their beliefs and values.

And for those folks, a political home outside the duopoly

feels like a better fit.

It can feel hopeless to think your only options

are between two bad choices.

The truth is, there aren't just two options.

But in this country and in this election,

what does it mean to make a different choice?

[MUSIC PLAYING]

I'm Emily Williams, Executive Director

of the Arcus Center for Social Justice Leadership

at Kalamazoo College.

This is Beyond Voting.

We started this show for people like you and me,

people who are socially aware, people

who care about making a difference in the world,

people who want to share in redesigning

the democracy that we deserve, outside

of the typical political binary.

This podcast is rooted in our conviction

that democracy requires more participation than just voting.

It's up to all of us to take action

if we want to see real change.

We'll feature conversations with leaders, activists,

and educators discussing the state of our country's institutions,

ongoing systems of oppression, and most importantly,

how we the people can take critical actions

in pursuit of true equity and justice.

Let's talk about third parties.

Third parties get a lot of backlash.

Every four years, we hear the same accusations

against third party presidential campaigns,

that there are distractions, that it's

throwing your vote away, that they take critical support

away from, quote unquote, "serious" campaigns,

and help secure wins for elites who don't really

care about the interests of the people.

Or even that third party candidates

are secret political operatives, funded

by conservative special interest groups to sabotage the left

and keep our politics in their two well-established lanes.

But some people believe that staying within well-established

political lanes isn't serving us.

For them, radical new visions of democracy

and sweeping social change is necessary and achievable.

So I wanted to talk to someone who shares that radical vision

and believes that sweeping change is just as necessary

and achievable today as it's ever been.

And if ever a third party candidate was serious about that change

in breaking our duopoly, it's today's guest, Rosa Clemente.

Rosa is a Black Puerto Rican scholar, activist, journalist,

organizer, and former vice presidential candidate

alongside Cynthia McKinney on the Green Party ballot in 2008.

She has consistently raised up Black and Latin

next-liberation movements and struggles

against violence and colonialism.

She was in the streets during the Black Lives Matter

protests in Ferguson in 2014.

She led a group of young organizers

to cover the destruction her came Maria caused in Puerto Rico.

And she has been an instrumental voice

in calling out rape culture in hip-hop.

When I talked to Rosa, she had just interviewed

third party presidential candidate with the Justice for All Party,

Dr. Cornel West.

So third party campaigns were front and center in her mind.

We talked about her introduction to the Green Party,

how third party campaigns actually help influence policy,

money and political viability,

and her perspective on those who are weighing

a historic vote for Kamala Harris

against their concerns about her policies.

Rosa, thank you so much for joining us.

Rosa Clemente:Thank you for having me.

Emily Williams:So Rosa, tell us, how did you get involved

with third party politics?

And what's your sense about what role third parties play

in influencing policy?

Rosa Clemente:I got involved in third party politics

right after the Gore election in 2000.

I had known about the Green Party

and I had been to events through my university

at that time, the University of Albany,

at Albany, New York.

And I went to an event that Ralph Nader was talking about.

And I went up to him and I said, you know, this is great,

but you won't get it as a white man.

There's like things that you missed.

And then he was like, you should join the Green Party.

So I did.

So that election where the Supreme Court made George Bush

the president, that was my first election.

And I wrote it for Nader.

Then in 2003, I was part of the 13 people

that found that the National Hip Hop political convention.

And we had a huge conference in Newark, New Jersey.

We're around 3,000 young folks from around the country

came to develop a hip hop political agenda.

And we did that.

And then the last one was 2008 in Las Vegas, Nevada.

But at that time in 2008, me and my husband, daughter,

were living with my sister in South Carolina.

And I had already began to see people

that I knew, particularly Jared Ball.

Jared was running for president.

Then he and someone else stepped aside.

And then we knew it was going to be Cynthia.

And then Cynthia called me.

And it was weird because we were such a people in my immediate family.

I don't even know how she got in contact with me.

I mean, she did.

And then she asked me and I was like, I'm pretty much unemployed.

I could leave my daughter, at least in my husband justice.

I'm saving my-- oh, then we got a little like crib in North Carolina.

And then I just started going on the road.

And then on July 12, 2008 in Chicago, we got the nomination.

Emily Williams:Wow.

And then it sounds like you were involved

with a lot of electoral politics

and forming your own political parties

before you were then asked to be Cynthia McKinney's running mate.

What role do third parties play in influencing policy?

Rosa Clemente:If you look at the Green Party platform for decades,

the Green Party was the first one to call for equality and marriage.

The Green Party was the first party to stand

on the Palestinian side of what was--

what it continues to happen in Gaza.

The Green Party was very instrumental in getting

people to understand not only what happens when people

from the Green Party run, but making people understand

that valid access is very, very difficult.

And that to a third party to become a permanent party

where they wouldn't have to spend most of the time

getting on a ballot, if we get 5% of the electorate,

that means you're permanent and you're

in the range of being able to get matching funds

from the federal election committee.

So what it really comes down to is this duopoly

doesn't want any third party.

They don't want the libertarians.

They don't want the craziness of R&K.

They don't want Green Party.

They don't want justice for all party.

And it's interesting because yesterday I saw a story

because I interviewed Dr. Cornel West yesterday.

And I was like, people need to know the people that

sue the Green Party the most is the Democratic Party.

Like right now if we were a permanent party,

we'd be closer than ever.

Well, we would get the 5% now, right?

Because there's stoked young people and Palestinian people

in Michigan that are like uncommitted

on the president all the way down.

And then obviously there was no youth enthusiasm

at all, you know, at all that changed very quick

with Vice President Harris.

So those two major parties don't ever

want to see a third party.

But I now get more than average 16 years later,

how me and Cynthia also created that space.

Emily Willams: And thank you for sharing so much of that

and also your personal experience because at least in 2008,

at least for me, the Green Party had visibility.

And in you and Cynthia's ticket had visibility.

And that platform was really influential for me personally.

And I think for a lot of other activists,

I mean, even this notion that in the 2020 elections

that student loan cancellation was such a major issue,

often it does take eight, 10 years

for these movements to actually get visibility

in mainstream politics, particularly in the elections.

And so I think a lot of that has to do

with the work that you and Cynthia did back in 2008.

Rosa Clemente:Yeah, and let me say we would be in such a much better place,

but the Green Party treated me.

And Cynthia, like shit, Colorado Greens took us off a ballot.

It's like what party takes they candidates off the ballot.

There's a lot of like white male racism to this day,

a lot of entitlement.

And they just treated us horribly. By the time,

in 2016, by the time that was going on,

Cynthia have been left a party.

Like I said, I stayed registered to vote for a John Marlboroca.

And that's the last time I voted for the Green Party.

And you know, I'm not voting for them again.

You know, I'm a member in it.

I think it's important, but the things that they did to us,

there's still been no accountability,

especially from white men in that party.

Emily Williams:Yeah, and I hate to hear that because it's like,

you know, we have these brilliant women of color

who are like on the front end of our movements,

on the front end of pushing our democracy forward

and we get beat up for it, we get abused for it.

And it absolutely should not be that way.

And hopefully we have more, I don't know if this is true,

but one would hope that we have more progressive institutions

now who would understand the importance of third parties.

And the sacrifices that people take

to actually lead these third parties.

But tell me this Rosa, what role do you think money

or the lack of it plays in the viability of third parties?

And relatedly, how do third parties become competitive

without becoming corrupt?

Rosa Clemente:Unless there's a like actual like real revolution,

and you know, I don't mean it in like,

you know, the way people think about it,

violence, civil war and that, none of us could compete.

You can't compete with half a billion dollars.

Like, you know, you can't compete with,

Kamala Harris getting three days, getting $119 million.

Even that though, people are not being honest about it.

She did not get that money from the 44,000 women

that were on a black women that were on a call

and the subsequent brothers who did a call

went together, they raised three to $4 million.

So where's the other 115 coming from?

From A-PAC, from corporations, you know,

Boeing, A-PAC, big tech.

You tell people like, this is just what it is.

I'm not like calm down, but don't act like

that she raised $119 million from the people.

And the closest we've been to that is Bernie Sanders.

So unless, you know, we're gonna go back

and relitigate citizens united,

which then gives unlimited money in all the PACs,

how can anybody compete?

Like that whole thing where anybody in America

could be president, absolutely not anymore.

It doesn't matter who runs, it's just like, stop saying that.

The only way that happens is in half federal election

committee matching the money.

So you can't compete.

So, Bernie's the best thing they have is that, you know,

especially seeing what was happening.

So recently where a lot of more younger, younger people

are tired, like they know this democracy shouldn't just be two parties.

They know how much money is going in it.

You know, I would love to at least see people debate.

The last time there was a third party person debating

was Ross Perot, and during the 10 years.

After that, there's never been another third party candidate

on either a debate presidential or vice presidential debate.

So if you can't get a debate, well, the closest one soon,

at least CNN did a town hall with a John and Barack

and Joe Stein.

But yeah, so the money thing, unless you get through something

or there's things that change that and no money from corporations,

no one can compete with $120,000,

and probably at the end, both of the candidates

will probably have spent a billion dollars together.

Emily Williams:And if you all maybe have been building the movement

for the Green Party since 2008, that makes sense.

But you know, recently, I've seen folks on social media

respond to the idea of voting third party by saying that we only ever

see these third party candidates every four years.

And basically that these third party candidates

come to convince people to like throw away their votes.

So why do you think people feel that way?

And how can we change that perception?

Rosa Clemente:Yeah, I mean, that's the complete misconception

because you don't win or lose an election

because someone else is running.

That fear comes from when people for months blamed Ralph Nader

when Al Gore lost.

But at the end of the day, Al Gore didn't get elected

because the Supreme Court stopped the counting of votes

and shut it down.

So the vitriol towards Nader and other third parties at that time

was pretty super intense, right?

And you're beginning to see it now again.

So what people do that is also to instill fear.

And anyone that thinks, I don't like either party,

I don't like this way going down.

Let me see another party and what's going on.

And then the thing is if people are voting out of fear,

that is not a democratic process.

That's like in Russia, when they're like 90% of the Russians voted,

yet because they have to, they go to people's houses

and like you better be on that line, you know?

And that's that's that's an authoritative oligarch kind of way.

But that's the whole point, like why are you scaring people?

Well, you're scaring people because at the end,

none of these parties are doing them

to what they need to do.

And it's just going to be the same stuff.

When Harris swings for the, what is she going to change?

She's going to be going on some things, which is great.

But at the end, she can't even really come hard

as she should have, again, the genocide, right?

Emily Williams:Exactly.

So Rosa, people often think of third parties

as too narrowly focused on like one or two issues

or that they lack flexibility when it comes to like working

within our political system.

Do you think that's a fair assessment?

Rosa Clemente:That they're too political to what?

Emily Williams:Like too narrowly focused or that their focus is so far

a field from what mainstream candidates are talking about

or what people perceive as a mainstream issues.

Rosa Clemente:No, we don't have third parties

or what the real mainstream issues are.

We don't want war, you know,

create a department of peace.

We think everybody deserves a little wage.

We think everybody deserves their debt being canceled,

not the $10,000 that everybody thinks

Biden and cancel all debt.

And I think this is where he's been the best at.

I just wish he went one step forward.

You know, this generation, younger generation can't stop.

They can't be in the economy by house

to participate because of student loan.

But everything else, it is a mainstream.

So the thing is people got to read the platforms.

So that's the problem too.

There's so much, there's lack in voter education.

Like I said, if you look at the green party

or you look at my speech from the National Hip-Hop political agenda,

every issue that people call it to this day

that working class people around this country,

they would be citing especially with the green party.

Because the green party's third party platform to me is the best.

Well, like I said at the beginning,

it's the green party that developed the green new deal.

AOC didn't do any of the neither did Bernie.

Joe Stein wrote that, right?

So like it's interesting to see the Democrats

have taken things literally from the green party platform

and be like these are the ideas.

But again, what do we want?

Ancet police violence, right?

A livable wage, every on-house person

should be in-house like immediately, right?

Canceling student debt loan, strengthening voter rights act,

fighting to get our reproductive rights.

That's always been the green party platform.

And if you juxtapose with the National Hip-Hop political convention,

we added a couple things.

And one of our biggest things coming from our people

would end mass incarceration.

And now that you look particularly, look at how much

further the police violence or mass incarceration movement

has to be getting major, major wins, right?

So I believe that those three platforms and agendas

is everything the people want.

Emily Williams:But I agree with that.

And I think if people truly understood representation in a democracy,

people would get that too.

But too often people capitulate to the power of the mainstream candidates,

right?

Because that's where they believe the power is and only where the power can be.

Rosa Clemente:And also the media is complicit.

I watch CNN and MSNBC daily.

And I'm like, look at all these, I call them the punditry class, right?

These cats on TV are acting like they're not millionaires.

So when they're sitting there and they're like nice contract and on TV,

being like, "Owe inflations not bad."

It's because you can afford $8 for an avocado.

It's because you're rich.

Where's the journalists that aren't rich on democracy now and other places?

But they've also this consistent litany of saving democracy for who?

What are you saving democracy for?

You go around the world, you're going to see like 50 different parties

and you're going to see mad people running.

And then you're going to have one election.

Are you going to have the second?

The best thing to watch recently is what happened in France.

You know, they went hard on the right.

Then Marie Le Pen and all the other right wingers were like, we're about to win.

And then the left came out and shut it down.

We don't have that.

We only have two parties.

No one can really run.

Once you're an AOC, Rashida to live and all that, their politics may be great, but

then they're joining 435 people that, you know, Nancy Pelosi is so diligent and

how keen Jeffries like, you know, shut down anything, shut it down.

And the squad becomes a little mad.

They're not able to do what they want in there to do or they're getting pushed out.

Or they're going to be primaries.

So like that whole thing of democracy for the group.

Emily Williams:Exactly.

Rosa Clemente:We just had another black woman shot in her house, Sonya Massey, you know, like look at all

the work young people have done.

And now in the last 10 days, there's been three other black men murdered by the police.

And now we have this mom that literally called them to help her.

And they shot her in her face.

So it's like democracy for who and what?

No, you have no clue what's going on in our communities period Emily Williams: because they don't want

to.

It's also well-fledd ignorance, right?

Rosa Clemente:And money.

But let's not underestimate that this is the one percent of the black and Latino community.

So again, they're like inflation is not bad.

Public schools are great.

Put police and public schools can't stop gone violence.

But then they're sitting there and then they start to attack in their kind of way of like,

well, if young people don't come out, you're going to get Trump is going to be your fault.

No, if Harris lose this, that's what's going to happen.

They're going to blame Latinos and then young people and then three party people as opposed

to being like, you knew you shouldn't have run him.

She should have already been the nominee.

And now this high level expectation, you know, now I'm saying she's obviously is polling

like doubling her polling.

We're now seeing young people engaged.

I love that as a black woman, if she becomes the president, that's something we have to be

like, oh, shit.

Its here.

And but then the next day, we got to go and then push her on whatever it is.

And of course, we don't have to discuss it.

Trump loses.

There's going to be a lot of like violence, political violence.

And then if he wins, you know, he's going to be a dictator and how do we prepare for that?

And what would that look like?

Now that the Supreme Court basically said what he said when you started running, I could

kill someone in church, I'm a public and I'm not going to jail.

Well, actually, you could do that now and you're not going to go to jail.

Emily Williams:Right.

Rosa Clemente:And the Supreme Court has just given immunity for acts in office and acts after.

Right.

Yeah.

Emily Williams:And you know, after he stacked the Supreme Court and now that they've given him full immunity

for anything he does in his official capacity as president, he knows exactly what that means.

But Rosa, so because you just mentioned Kamala Harris and she's now the Democratic nominee.

How do we respond to people who, you know, may agree with the policies of a third party

candidacy like West and Abdullah, but are also swayed by the potential historical significance

of this moment for black women.

Rosa Clemente:I mean, that's critically important.

Look, I call myself a black Puerto Rican, but the African American women experience is different.

And I've been very mindful of not going hard on her like when my daughter calls me and

she's like, Mom, I'm going to be able to vote for a black woman.

Are you going to be mad?

And I was like, no, like, no, why would I be mad?

I was like, girl, that's like going in that booth or pressing that button.

You know, that's that's for you.

That's your decision or me.

Look, when it comes down to it, I may be totally off on this.

I just don't think men are going to vote for a woman to be president.

Black, white, Asian, not Latin.

Come on.

Like I'm like, so are reproductive rights no longer exist.

But now this country is going to elect a black woman beyond that.

You know, what I do and I always and clear to you know, when people call me for advice or

anything, what I say now with this is like totally opposed to probably every policy decision.

I don't forget that she passed a law where the families of kids that were truant were

arrested.

I don't forget her A-PAC speeches and all of that.

But is someone began to attack her because and it's already happening because of gender

and patriarchy.

I don't support any of that and I don't accept it because when I was running, that's when

Hilary Clinton was still in it and like the vitriol based on her looks and that.

So I think you can have both.

I think you could oppose vehemently, you know, the policies, but also if she's attacked,

it's the responsibility of us as women of color to be like, no, this is not going to go

down that way.

Look, this is going to be an incredible moment for African American women who keep saving

the Democratic Party.

This is going to be a significant moment for young people to be like, oh my God, a woman's

the president.

So I always say vote your values, vote that day, the next day get back to organizing.

Emily Williams:Right.

Which is so important.

And you know, that's kind of like this election shows us that more than anything.

You know, you got to vote, but then it's like you got to organize and we should always be

organizing actually in my opinion.

Rosa Clemente:Absolutely.

Emily Williams:But I want to go back to something that you said earlier about whether or not men will

actually vote for a woman to become president.

I think that's a valid question.

But then also you mentioned we're taking away a woman's reproductive rights in one moment

and then the next moment we think a woman can win as president.

I just, I want to hear you say more about that because when I think about how women lost

the rights or their reproductive rights, it was because of this very far right agenda and

because the Supreme Court is packed, not necessarily like this broad misogyny or patriarchy

that led to it.

But rather was just almost like a small contingent of people who made that happen because they

had the power to do so.

So what is it that makes you say that you can't see that men will actually vote for a woman

to become president?

Rosa Clemente: Because men have literally dropped the ball on calling a mass movement mass march whatever

to push for abortion to be codified, which the Democrats had many years to codify reproductive

rights and not leave it up to the Supreme Court just or leave it up to the stage because

if that was the flip, like if it was, if it was men's reproductive rights that would take

in away the country would have burnt down in like five days.

Where are the men?

Emily Williams:Right.

Rosa Clemente:Like where are you?

And I mean all of you like where are you?

And I also believe it's not as you know, just about abortion.

It's about controlling your reproductive rights.

And anytime I'm in a space where a man might say, well, I don't know where I'm not sure.

I also say don't think that you one day will be even able to control your own body.

What if those goes the more dystopic way of well, you know what?

We're going to take away the reproductive rights of poor black men.

Oh, you know what?

We're not going to allow somebody that was in jail.

We want to sterilize them before they come out so they don't have reproductive control

of their bodies.

Now when you when I say that to men, then it's like, oh, word.

Like I'm like, stop acting like it's just us.

Emily Williams:Right.

And stop acting like you don't have a stake when it's just us.

Rosa Clemente:Yeah, but I hate when men are like, oh, you know, I get misogyny because my daughter,

you should get it anyway.

Like it's not about having a woman in your life.

Emily Williams:Exactly.

Exactly.

You're listening to Beyond Voting.

I'm Emily Williams.

Before the break, we were talking with 2008 Green Party Vice Presidential candidate Rosa

Clemente.

In the second half of our conversation, Rosa shared her thoughts about what it would

take to mobilize a third party into relevancy.

The current state of social justice movements and what kind of country we'd have to look

forward to if we implemented Rosa's vision for America.

So tell me this, did we miss an opportunity to mobilize for a third party when Biden stood

down?

Rosa Clemente:Yeah, we did.

We weren't prepared for it.

You know, we were running these three different kind of independent campaigns and also

you have RFK and the libertarians, you know, I think what should have happened is all

the third party candidates should be together and got at least on the same ballot.

I think it happened so fast too.

You know, I think what was going on was that people just were exhausted at that point.

We're like, whatever, just let us get to the ballot booth because this everyday kind

of thing.

I think the Democrats, again, as if I was a political officer, I would have been told

them, like, yo, why are you all putting him up there?

Like, why is Joe Biden and his sister and his son not being like, yo, you've been in here

for 50 years?

You've done some incredible good work.

He did some bad work because he was the one when the need of Hill confirmations were happening.

He led that, you know, and obviously the war was going on in Gaza.

Kind of thing, but there's a moment where you have empathy and compassion.

You know, I think what's also happened, which is antithetical to how black and brown people

roll is the disrespect of an elder.

You see him struggle like that.

And it's just like, why are you all doing this and that the mainstream media was taking some

form of glee, you know, like, oh, what's going to happen?

Why is he going to pout and say that shit's not funny?

You all like, that's sad.

Yeah.

Emily Williams:Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I think in some ways, it was like so many people were just so numb.

Many people had already resigned themselves to, you know, I saw so many people online saying,

I'm going to vote for Joe Biden if he's, you know, on life support, you know, because they

just didn't want the alternative.

So I think so many people were just numb and just forced themselves to just resolve to vote

for him no matter what, because he's not Trump, you know, because he was the democratic nominee.

And you know, when I think about probably the majority of the country being in that state

of mind, that also makes me think about what you said about like how we weren't prepared

for that moment because we just, we were just numb to it, right?

We're just going along with it at this point.

But it also makes me think, how do we take our radical left politics and apply them to

this moment that we're in right now?

Rosa Clemente:Well, I just, I don't think we have a movement.

And I also think what happened is more left people, social justice, racial justice, people,

gender justice, you know, they put all their, their, their two skills and money to vote

for somebody.

I think that's the biggest mistake the movement has made to forget organizing on the ground

locally, right?

And then only come in right now and scaring everybody to be like, give us money.

We've got to make sure that Harris wins.

I think the movement has become too dependent on electoral politics.

But also again, we don't have a movement.

It's been completely shattered.

I think that's the biggest mistake that happened post Obama that this over reliance.

So are you going to get a left political radical?

No, no.

You're going to get it if you're on the ground organizing in your organization.

That's not going to come through on voting for a president and to see the movement so

fracture that some of us really paid attention to older folks, the hip-hop generation,

kind of political people.

We were never engaged in electoral politics like that till after Obama.

And now it's become the main thing that people are using.

And then all the attacks on Black Lives Matter movement for Black Lives, Dream Defenders, Mi Gente

and the organizations that have come out from the millennial generation, that generation

who created these new organizations come out of having voted for Obama.

So then when Trayvon is murdered and then George Zimmerman gets acquitted, that was the

time where that generation was like, why does it matter to have a Black president?

You know, we're never going to have a radical black policy within electoral projects?

That's why it's the organizing on the, where you're at locally because we don't have a national

kind of over broad movement.

People have gone in different directions, but the local organizing, that's what's going

to work better than anything else.

You know, and I think we need to get back to doing organizing on the grassroots, to doing

movement, to saying if you want to get down with electoral politics, do it through these

third parties.

Now what I neglected to say is because what happens also, we don't know people that have

been elected.

So when you look at the Green Party nationwide, we have elected mayors, city controllers,

board of ed people on the Green Party platform.

We just haven't gotten to the national election in those candidates.

Emily Williams:So what do you think it would take to rebuild that kind of movement?

Rosa Clemente:You know, I don't think that's going to happen again.

So I think like for me, if there's maybe a national movement comes back up on some other

thing, like maybe a national movement towards working class people to better the economic

conditions and opportunities, but also, you know, I also believe capitalism is the main

tool that destroys so many people.

So I think it's local community organizing and coming out of the Malcolm X grassroots movement,

one of our tenants itself determination and that can look very different, but I do see

more and more people being like less organized.

I don't need to get on a plane to go to someone else's protest.

Let's organize here.

Let's build something and there are organizations that are doing that.

One of my best that is my also political home is what folks have been doing in cooperation

Jackson.

Then I live in, so that's Johnson, Mississippi.

That's my con rattle Malcolm X grassroots movement.

Colleo, Kuno and Sakio, Kuno.

It's also where Chowkwe, Lamoomba, but became the mayor and unfortunately he died of a hard

attack.

But Colle specifically had developed a 10 year plan of self determination.

So if you go to Johnson right now, they have a supermarket.

They got gardens.

They have built houses for activists, but they're creating on those things and I see it.

Then I live here in upstate New York.

We have probably one of the few black Latinx farms in about 30 minutes away from me in Albany

and in Grafton.

And I tell people just come out here so I can take you to see this because what it is is like

we know that Malcolm did always talk about to this.

If you can't have land and feed yourself, you're always going to be dependent.

But now that we know that 44,000 black women were on that call, I think that after the election,

we need to have a mass call like that from everybody in this country that we can all tap into

collectively and at least be like, okay, this happened.

And then if he were to win, we really going to have to do that because if he loses, I know

there's going to be a lot of political violence and it's going to be coming from the crowd

boys and Steve Bannon's and all of that because they're going to do the same thing.

And this time it's not going to be, not that it was good last time, you know, but I think

it's going to be a very, very dark time.

So that's what I'm saying.

Local organizing works if you could tap into the national and if people can't organize

on the ground like that, then at least let's support these groups that also are not intertwined

with the nonprofit industrial complex, the real folks that are doing that work of what

Malcolm said, so determination.

Emily Williams:Yeah.

And thank you for that.

And what advice would you give to even the younger activists among us?

Rosa Clemente:Well, I would like the younger activists to be part of an organization and not just think

like, you know, organized doing yourself on TikTok is making a difference.

Just making kind of people retreat to like their specific corner and their specific politics.

What I would say to generation C to not make, I think the more mistakes about the millennials

is the minute they start wanting you on a magazine, the minute they want to close you,

the minute you go on Jimmy Fallon, that's already done.

It's over.

Emily Williams:Right.

So I've heard you say that your focus is on motivating non voters.

So what do you tell disillusioned undecided voters?

What do they need to do right now?

What do they need to do on November 5th?

And what do they need to do in the four years between this year's election and the next

election?

Rosa Clemente:I mean, when I was in the green party, yeah, I wanted to, you know, I would tell everybody

we got to get those that are not voting at that moment, what that demographic looked

like.

But I've never been one that says you have to vote.

And this is the part you people like Rosa, look, you vote, you don't vote.

Again, that's a personal decision, but coming out of Puerto Rican politics on the island,

not because I lived there, but Puerto Ricans and other, maybe some, some of the countries,

when you withhold your vote, you should be withholding it as the message itself.

So if you look at elections around the world, there will literally be people like, I'm

not going to participate in this system of voting.

So when someone tells me that I'm like at the end of the day, that's your position.

Because for me, whatever president's in it, whether it would ever have been me or it's

going to be Cornel West or whatever, I don't shame people who don't vote enough people

do that.

Now, Puerto Rico, we can vote as the president, right?

And that itself is disenfranchisement of 1.7 million Puerto Ricans under colonial rule,

who are not a lot to vote if they live on the island.

So if you're going to withhold the vote, I'm not mad at that.

But I think for me, I love the uncommitted movement.

And I love that that is coming straight from the ground, that Palestinian people in Michigan

have already said, and they said it even when Harris, you know, becoming a nominee.

If you do not end this genocide in Gaza, we are withholding our vote.

And the reason the Democrats are very scared of that is because that's what happened when Hillary

and Trump.

So you see 43,000 people that voted in Michigan, but did not vote for the president.

But I think the sophistication of the Palestinian movement in this country say, you know what?

I'm still voting uncommitted until they stop the war and genocide.

You are not getting my vote.

I will vote down ballot for our Congresswoman, Roshita and other people.

And I don't think the DNC is taking that seriously enough.

Emily Williams:I agree with you on that.

I don't think there are the DNC's taking it seriously enough.

And I agree that it was, it was so smart and it was timed perfectly right around the

primaries to say, listen, we're not going to vote for you.

We're uncommitted.

And here's our issue, right?

So that was super smart.

So all right, Rosa, I have so been looking forward to asking you this last question.

Rosa Clemente:Okay.

So let's just say that we successfully bring down the duopoly.

And now we have president Rosa Clemente.

Rosa Clemente:No, no I'm never running again.

I've been, I've been very, no, I mean, I'm glad to be like, you know, when younger people

maybe the green party and they're like, they're running and I'm like, how can I support

you?

But no, I don't want to run for any position.

I, I don't have that in me anymore.

Emily Williams:Okay.

Okay.

So then, okay.

So let me just shift at that.

So let's just say that we successfully bring down the duopoly and someone from the younger

generation who you have mentored and for whom you have been a political operative.

Let's say that they are now president.

How would you advise them to implement a social justice platform in the first 100 days?

Who's in that cabinet and how does the country change for the better?

Rosa Clemente:Yeah.

I mean, in those first 100 days, they could do a lot of executive orders.

You know, immediately I would hope that they would first deal with the migrant situation

on the border.

Yeah.

I think the way people are looking at it is an old way of looking at it.

I think people don't understand that there's also Chinese folks, Haitian folks that are coming

through that border too.

And the actualities that the Mexican migration movement has like dwindled.

And now you see more other countries and then making these treacherous journeys.

I would advise them against the cancel student loan debt.

I would want them to maybe reshape the Supreme Court and impeach those that need to be

impeached because they're the law of the land and that everyone has housing.

And then lastly, just healthcare for all.

I mean, Joe Biden has done good on that.

You can't be like, yo, insulin was $500 and not $35 a month.

I would be like, it shouldn't cost anything.

There's no way in with the richest country, the world, and anybody have to do anything,

but get free healthcare and not have to jump through the hoops.

That was that seriously look at a new way of looking at education and what would that look

like because public education needs to be revamped because it shouldn't be.

I was going to high school 30 years ago and the school still looked the same in our teaching the

same way.

When now we're a country where it's like, you know, we could do education very differently.

We could also obviously that higher education should also be free.

And we can do all these things and it could cost what a trillion dollars to do everything.

I said, well, we're already in two trillion dollars worth of debt.

I mean, and immediately cut at least the military spending 50%.

Do that alone.

Everything that I just said happens.

So that's what I would advise them.

I would go to the party and meet Kendrick and tell him he's a genius and then I would go

home and be like, I'm here when you need me.

Emily Williams:All right.

So many important lessons from this conversation with Rosa.

Let's start with what's on everyone's mind.

If you're not happy with any candidate in the selection and let's be honest, even with

Vice President Harris now being the Democratic nominee, many of us still don't feel our values

in politics are represented by any candidate.

Then the question is, how do we create change, especially when it seems at the system,

as in the US electoral system is so deeply entrenched?

Remember that voting is a tool.

It is far from the end all be all within a democracy to truly create the democracy that

we all deserve.

We have to find multiple ways to make our voices heard as individuals and as collectives,

as members of communities.

Rosa said, vote your values, think it back to organizing the next day.

We stress that we can't put too much emphasis on the presidential elections when the people's

issues are environmental justice, a livable wage, ending war and violence here in abroad,

organizing is critical.

So vote your values and get back to organizing, especially at the local level, the very next

day.

Perhaps you're listening because you want to get active in your community and make a difference.

Perhaps you're worried about the fate of democracy if Trump is elected for a second term

in what that will mean for the rise of fascism here in the US and around the world.

Or perhaps you're concerned because the Democratic Party isn't distinguishing itself

enough from the Republican platform.

Those are real concerns and we'll talk more about them next week.

But when we say organizing, we being coming together with others, determining a set of issues

to address, strategizing the way forward and being relentless about creating positive

social change.

Social media can be a great tool for community organizing, but it cannot replace working collaboratively

in real life with other groups of folks to bring about change.

And remember when Rosa said that the Green Party would get 5% of the electorate now in

this election?

That didn't happen because in many ways, the Green Party lost momentum after Rosa's

in Cynthia McKinney's run for president.

So we have to organize continually to address our community's issues and for the world that

we deserve so that when the time is right, we're ready with the alternative the masses are

looking for.

I mean, just imagine if Rosa and Cynthia were running in this election in an un-a-platform

of ending war, canceling student debt, actually passing the Green New Deal, access to reproductive

rights for all.

Imagine how different this election would be.

So remember that organizing is often about the long game.

It's about being ready for when the moment is right.

Don't expect change to be easy.

Rosa started her journey into third-party politics when she was in college.

She's been at it a long time.

That's not the only reason why making change wasn't easy for Rosa.

It's also because when we buck up against the status quo, those who benefit from it try

really hard to resist any change that could threaten those benefits.

Rosa shared about the white male racism she encountered, which ultimately caused her to physically

leave the Green Party, even though she still donates because she knows how important the work

of third parties are.

Part of the reason why third-party candidates struggle so much is because of the amount

of money in politics.

Remember that she said Kamala raised $119 million?

The media made it seem as though that money was raised from the black women and men

who held Zoom calls to celebrate her candidacy.

Yet, it was actually big tech and other special interest groups that donated the majority

of the money to her campaign.

So if candidates are beholden to their donors and the corporate packs who help to finance

their campaign, how would our issues ever truly be represented by the presidential candidates?

Perhaps we need to strategize on how to get corporate and special interest money out of

politics so our voices can actually be heard.

So what do we do beyond voting?

Whether your vote stays with establishment candidates or ventures to a third party, I think the key

lesson is that we must recognize that the real work happens outside of the voting booth.

Rosa is right.

We shouldn't be waiting for a political superhero to come along, occupy the oval office,

and make the change that we so desperately need.

If we're waiting for a savior, we're going to be waiting forever.

The real work of supporting and saving our communities happens in those communities.

We all know that lasting substantive life-saving change always happens from the bottom up,

not the president down.

So tell us, how are you practicing your politic?

What are you doing to organize in your community?

You can tell us on IG@arcus.center or you can drop it in your five star review of the

show.

Shout out to our guest, Rosa Clemente, for sharing her time, her passion, and her wisdom

with us.

You can find Rosa on her website, rosaclomente.net, and you can find her on Instagram.

She's Black Porter Reacon PhD.

If you liked today's show, let us know.

Share the episode with your friends and family, and please visit us at arcuscenter.kzoo.edu.

Thanks for joining us on Beyond Poding.

See you next time.

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Beyond Poding is hosted by me, Emily Williams.

Keisha T.K. Dutas is our executive producer.

Kristen Bennett is our producer.

In this episode was written by Kristen Bennett and me.

Our song designer and engineer is Manifaces.

Marketing is courtesy of Fabian Mickins, and our music is provided by Motion Array.

Special thanks to my team at the Arcus Center for Social Justice Leadership.

Quintin, Crimson, Tamara, Winter, and Kara.

Beyond Poding is a production of "Phelos Future Media."

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