Emily Williams:Hi everyone, we're glad to have you back. Thanks for joining us. On our last episode, we spent some time with activists and author Feminista Jones, and she helped us dig into the arguments for and against voting in the 2024 presidential election.

She also talked about how many of us placed too heavy of an emphasis on presidential politics as the main driver of social change, oftentimes to the exclusion of other powerful political avenues like organizing and getting active in local elections.

And I think she makes an excellent point, but when you think about it, it makes sense that that's how people think about political engagement.

Americans have long been taught to view voting as their primary way of influencing politics. It's how we have our say in this country, and it's fundamental to our idea of a representative democracy, one person, one vote.

But what happens when you start to feel like your vote is being taken for granted? When you've gone through all the appropriate and quote unquote respectable avenues to hold folks accountable,

and tried to pressure and influence your party's candidate on the things that matter to you most, but you still feel shut out of the process.

Do you stay in the process?

[Music]

Emily Williams, Executive Director of the Arcus Center for Social Justice Leadership at Kalamazoo College. Welcome to Beyond Voting.

We started this show for people like you and me, people who care about making a difference in the world, people who want to share in redesigning the democracy we deserve, outside of the typical political binary.

This episode, I want to consider what working within the confines of electoral politics can do for us, and what its limitations are through the lens of the uncommitted movement.

The uncommitted movement is a grassroots movement of over 700,000 Democratic voters and political leaders, many in critical swing states, who refuse to commit to voting for the Democratic nominee in the presidential primaries until their demands for a ceasefire movement.

And in arms embargo, we're taken seriously. Now that the Democratic National Convention is over, and a Democratic nominee has been officially selected, I wanted to talk to someone who can help me understand where the uncommitted movement goes from here.

What's been the response from Democratic Party leadership to being pushed to change their policy in Israel and Gaza by members of its own party?

And can working within the system truly pave a way for their demands to become real policy?

Today's guest had some incredibly insightful answers. Esam Boraey has been on the front lines for Freedom and Democracy in the Middle East.

He's an Egyptian-American political activist and academic, who, to hear him tell it, was inspired by the American values of freedom and democracy for all.

That inspiration led him to take an active role in the 2011 Arab Spring protest demanding Democratic representation, human rights, and the divestment of American funds from Egypt's military.

In 2013, Esam fled to America after he was convicted and sentenced to prison as a dissident in his native Egypt.

Since immigrating to the United States, Esam has been working tirelessly for human rights.

In the aftermath of the tragic events of October 7, 2023, and the Israeli government's military campaign in Gaza, Esam joined the uncommitted movement, fueled by his desire to push the Biden administration to change his policy and stop funding the atrocities being committed against Palestinians in Gaza.

In earlier this year, he was chosen to be one of two Democratic National Convention delegates from Connecticut.

Esam has a unique perspective on the role that foreign policy plays in our elections and the perception of the United States across the globe.

That perspective informs his desire to ask more of our elected officials when their policies don't reflect the values they claim to uphold.

When I talked to Esam, it was only a few days after the Democratic National Convention wrapped its week-long festivities in Chicago.

I wanted to hear about his experience with the uncommitted movement, his history as an activist, how the uncommitted delegates were received by the party's leadership at the DNC, and his thoughts on continuing to push his fellow Democrats on Gaza, foreign policy, and more.

Esam, thank you so much for joining us.

Esam Boraey:Thanks for having me.

Emily Williams:So, Esam, tell us, what is the uncommitted movement? How did you get involved? And what's the process of being a part of it?

Esam Boraey:The uncommitted effort started actually way back during the primary process in early March when many members of the Democratic Party decided to vote uncommitted during the primary process.

And the reason for that was we will not show support to Joe Biden at the time until he shifts his policy towards the Palestinian Israeli conflict.

And that was significant effort to tell Democrats that we are members of your party.

We disagree with your policies. So this is the time to have a discussion, and this is the time to have this conversation.

The process of being part of the uncommitted movement is very simple, just vote present during the delegation campaigns.

And we hope that the Democratic delegates who are elected in some way or the other to be part of the DNC delegation to choose the president.

And we decided to use that leverage and that momentum to be able to raise some questions and concerns regarding American foreign policy, especially when it comes to the Israeli Palestinian conflict.

And we strongly disagree with how one sided the American administration has been in that conflict.

And we also strongly disturbed by funding all of the horrors that's been happening since October 7 in Gaza and the suffering that's been happening again is the Palestinian population.

And then, since the day we were, we know that we will be part of the DNC delegation. We decided to use that leverage to be able to raise those questions and push our administration as much as we can towards more equitable and more just approach to the Israeli Palestinian conflict.

And the first step was to follow the process and the procedures that the party itself implemented for us as delegates to be able to add part to the platform suggest edits or even suggest new items to the party platform.

And after that voting, or not voting for vice president Kamala Harris to be the nominee for the party.

Emily Williams: Right. And it was so smart and so strategic because it was a way to actually create accountability with the vote, particularly during the primaries.

It was an opportunity to say, listen, you can't take our vote for granted.

Esam Boraey:Yes, that's perfectly right. And also, like we wanted also to show that many people in the strategic must win states are supporting a change of policy.

But also, you can guess how many others who didn't participate in the primaries or didn't vote uncommitted. How many of us, how many more are in favor of exchange and policy.

And this is what the polls keep showing every day.

Emily Williams:Right. Absolutely. And I think early on, in particularly in Michigan, the uncommitted vote got much more support than even expected.

I think I remember something like in Michigan, the goal was like 10,000 uncommitted votes and there ended up being 100,000 something along those lines where there was many more people who voted uncommitted than the movement itself even expected.

Which is telling about where Americans really are with this policy towards Gaza.

Esam Boraey:Sure.

Emily Williams:So, as I'm telling you this, why is the Israel Gaza conflict different? Like, why is this such a divisive issue for Americans? And how does the response in America differ from the response in so many other places in the world?

Esam Boraey:Actually, I do, I disagree with you. It's not different at all.

We're speaking in terms of how the American administration responds to the conflict. If we're talking about how the conflict is run and how it's seen.

If we're talking about the factors and the elements of which impact how we as Americans respond to this whole situation is not actually different.

Emily Williams:Well, let me clarify because I think what's so different about this conflict with Israel and Gaza is that the majority of Americans support a ceasefire yet the problem persists.

America's involvement remains the same.

And there is such hesitance to actually speak out against Israel. And so in this sense, why is it so divisive?

And then I guess the question is, is the nature of the conflict and how people are responding? Is it different here in the US than other places in the world?

Esam Boraey:I will say it's not different. It's a very expected pattern from the American administration to have this gap between what the American administration does and what the American people asking them to do.

And there is an for this two reasons. The number one is money and politics. We have a large amount of money that goes into political campaigns to guarantee that the winning candidate will adapt or follow certain policies or punish sitting candidates, sitting members of Congress and push them to lose their seats.

So the money in politics is a huge problem and make all of us as hostages to those wealthy donors who can navigate our political system and political response.

The second reason and it's not less important than the first reason the deep rooted racism in our policy makers in Washington DC.

Now those bureaucrats, those people who analyze the situation and elevate recommendations that they have to the president or the State Department, those people have a significant level of deep rooted racism and the racism reflects pretty much on how they look at the Arabs middle Eastern Muslims as savages, terrorists.

And those are the lives that don't matter as much. And those class of different employees who grow up with which administrations and 9/11 and all of those all of those significant events and non significant events have this conventional wisdom about Arabs in the Eastern are not suited for democracy are not suited for freedom.

And the lives are less worthy than the others and Israel is the only democratic state in the Middle East that they look like us they speak like us when you walk in Tel Aviv it looks like New York or Chicago.

So we will side with those people because they are more worthy because they look like us and speak like us and adapt to the same culture.

Those two reasons the money aspect and the racism that's rooted in our career policy makers in DC ring us to the same better of conflict where we think picking up one side and supporting them with as much money and as much weapons as possible will in the conflict and will protect and save our interest in the region which is completely wrong.

Emily Williams:Thank you for spelling that out so clearly and in such detail because I think that that's something that people can see or maybe pick up on but to have it spelled out is really helpful.

And do you think that that type of racism is unique to the US or does it also affect the response around the globe.

Esam Boraey:We see rise of right when populism and nationalism and fascism all over the globe, especially in North America and East Europe.

However though it takes a stronger meaning here in the US because of the greater impact of the American politics on the globe.

This is why it's very unique to the US during the civil rights movement here in the US even after it changing the laws racism remained for decades and decades and decades after that because the class of progress

was running and implementing those rules were as racist as it was the day before implementing those laws and those people were very creative and finding ways to walk around those those laws.

And so the impact and strength of the US and the American foreign policy around the globe and how we use as Americans our military power and money to support dictators and authoritarian regimes across the globe that increases the impact of this racism and makes mix the American racism more hurtful than any other part of the world.

Emily Williams:Yeah and what I'm thinking of when you're speaking when I'm listening to you is that the combination of white supremacy and imperialism is much more harmful than what other countries are able to do because they don't invest as much in their imperial projects and perhaps white supremacy is not as ingrained in their institutions or within society.

The way that it is in the US right and I think you know we so often think about white supremacy as it relates to black folks in this country and how they've been treated but I like that you're also highlighting how this white supremacy is also coming out in the foreign policy in particularly as it relates to what's happening in Gaza.

Okay so for people who feel like this is coming out of nowhere that actually the conflict between Israel and Gaza just happened last year on October 7th and that it has absolutely nothing to do with them.

How does what is happening in Palestine? How does that actually affect Americans?

Esam Boraey:I grew up in a region believing that American and American foreign policies that guaranteer of our freedoms and without the pressure that the American administration will put in our dictators and other 300 James in in the Middle East from Mubarak in Egypt to Saddam Hussein in Iraq for example.

The suffering of those people will of us as people will increase significantly and we believed in that strongly if I would say the same thing today my nephew who is 21 years old and he's in his touch will laugh at my face right that hurts our credibility and that will reflect and increasing disliking and hatred toward the American politics and the American.

Regimes and even the American people across the globe we are in a crucial moment where American credibility on the global stage is under huge threats of undermining to the level that at some places at some points it's laughable to talk about American credibility and if we don't act immediately to restore this credibility in a global stage.

We will be doomed forever and the only way to do that the only way to restore our credibility is by standing truth to our values and put our values of freedom human rights democracy equality justice ahead of our individual interests of winning a seat or increasing the funding to my campaign.

We think our interest will be strong or was strengthened by maintaining a status quo but we do not we do not realize the status quo is changing since 2011 and after that and the young people who are now running things are changing and they have different measures of measuring everything and those class bureaucrats who create our foreign policy need to move away from it and start understanding.

What is the new status quo and how can we work with it otherwise we are losing on every front we're losing financially we're losing politically and more importantly in my opinion we're losing more than we can afford that.

Emily Williams:And so now and I want to ask you to clarify because you said something that Kamala Harris said in her closing speech at the DNC and I think you to mean two different things right she also said that we have to show the world our values and we have to show the world who we are and stick to our values.

But I think you two are talking about two different things right so one what are those values that we actually need to stick to as Americans to regain credibility in the global community, two what do you think has changed about the global community that now has changed its perception of the U.S.

What are the things that are actually damaging our credibility with the global community with and also thinking domestically are we ruining our credibility by adopting things like cops city in Atlanta or trainings with the idea of with the Israel defense forces how about censorship on social media

punishing college protesters I mean are those things that are happening domestically are those also ruining our credibility abroad yes to Esam Boraey:Your first question about the values it was so heartbreaking to sit right on front of vice president Kamala Harris talks about sticking to our values and in the same breath we'll talk about having the strongest military the most powerful military.

Emily Williams:So the word was lethal to use the word lethal which is like more extreme in my opinion than same powerful or strong saying lethal is more extreme Esam Boraey: yes then yes other words yes that was that was very sad because again we'll take me back to the racist assumption in our class

bureaucrats in DC thinks that the only way is to kill as many people as possible to be able to secure our interest or maintain our our resources on our our strong hand across the globe and this in realistic approach to foreign policy is not only dangerous but also so wrong and so against our values.

So when I follow news articles and how the media outside of the US especially in the Middle East and beyond how they cover what's happening one of the most repeated sentence in those news coverage in many languages not only Arabic or in Egypt in many languages and many countries it's something along the lines of American universities implementing new rules and new laws to oppress students freedom.

It's students freedom speech on campus and these are the democratic values that Americans keep talking about all day Emily Williams:right and then also hold themselves as like an authority in the rest of the world to uphold democracy or to promote democracy exactly which is obviously comes off as very hypocritical.

Esam Boraey:I was born in this region and I grew up with these assumptions right the way we see Americans is this your value you always talk about your values of freedom equality despite your race gender ethnicity and sexual orientation right this is what how we understood it but when we see your actions on that way it strongly shakes your image in our brain so now if the young generations

who paid their blood and freedoms to be able to push their governments more and more towards an American style democratic process.

So how can we do this anymore how can we adopt that narrative anymore and how can I oppose my government leaning toward Russia or Iran or China for example right how can I believe my government for doing this since American values that were implemented in my brain are being destroyed and damaged by the actions of the American people and the American government and American officials.

And the negative impact of that changing in in minds and image if doesn't hurt us as Americans not only financially and economically and military to some early if we if you're not awake if you're not aware of that point I think we will we will wake up sooner or later in a very different global order that we will not

like Emily Williams: And thank you for laying that out so clearly for us that insight about how the perception of the U.S. in our credibility in the global community is shifting and why because too few Americans think about what the rest of the world thinks of us right you know our foreign policy is so prevalent throughout the world is really

really shaped the rest of the world but if many places throughout the world are beginning to reject our influence in our role and think of us critically you're right I think a lot of people would think so especially when it comes to the more imperialistic foreign policy of the U.S.

you know when we think about Kamela Harris is his comments in her closing speech at the DNC and when she talked about having the most lethal military in the world and what you're sharing with us is that that actually is diminishing our credibility in the rest of the world the rest of the world doesn't want to see that.

So then it makes me question well who are those comments for who is she appeasing with those kinds of comments that's important for us to think about right in terms of whose influencing our candidates and whose influencing this quote unquote democratic process Esam Boraey:so I of course I don't have any like documented answers but I I could tell you how that's perceived in the wider universe beyond the U.S.

everywhere on earth immediately responded this is the military in the city of complex lobby line and that speech this is how the lines is perceived the next line will be every time the American economy is going through a slow turn or slow growth American government will always start a war to be able to sell weapons in their economy will increase this is how people think of the Americans and

I can't say there is no smoke without fire right like I'm sure there are evidence out there will support that narrative and I will just leave it at money and politics is very dangerous thing.

Emily Williams:So circling back to the uncommitted movement how have you all tried to get the democratic party to shift its policy on Israel and Gaza what happened at the DNC and what was the party's response.

Esam Boraey:The party's response is very disappointing almost zero response so far so we started the uncommitted movement to buy uncommitted vote before the primaries and we decided to do this to show how many registered Democrats this is not counting independent that counting anyone else just how many registered Democrats who voted in the primary will be in favor of the change in policy and the uncommitted movement came out in the

very strong with higher number than expected and encouraged more and more people to join that sentiment and then once once we learn it that we

have elected to be delegates and we form a final list of who's going to be to be a delegate immediately in the party meetings and the DNC meetings and the platform meeting the policy making meetings.

So we have a lot of people who are not knowing each other and networking within the delegates who are supported the uncommitted vote and it was one of the most beautiful groups I've ever seen and I work with in my entire life they are dedicated they are very diverse our backgrounds are absolutely true representation of the democratic party as we like to claim right? And then we we took multiple actions again is starting and we are going to be able to do that.

So we are starting and beginning with following the platforms that the process that the party implemented for us and our thought was what happens in October 7th was insanely painful and we cannot justify that but also what's been happening again is the Palestinian people since October 8th is too much suffering for innocent people for innocent civilians for children for women for Palestinians in general and

that suffering is not only happening since October 8th it's been happening in Gaza and the West Bank for many many decades. Gaza has been under siege Gaza has been described as an open air prison for 2.2 million people or two again I'm sorry I have to repeat that number 2.2 million people live in an open air prison for 18 years.

18 years and there is an occupying force that controls how many calories per day each person will eat how much electricity will go to each hospital who's allowed to to live I can't tell you how many cancer patients died inside Gaza because they couldn't get a security

security permission to go to the hospital those cancer patients kids and elderly all ages all backgrounds so we wanted to highlight that suffering and highlight that that's actually we are paying for that we are paying for killing and

genocide in things of thousands of kids and women and Palestinians on daily basis and we are paying for putting them inside an open air prison for decades we did everything we could prior to the convention in Chicago and also we requested meetings we requested speakers we requested everything we could we get nothing

and return the language we wrote to be included in the platform was absolutely dismissed none of it appeared in the final platform our goal is sell primary and the convention is the best time for Democrats to sit together have this hard discussion come up with more just

and equitable policy that will guarantee safety and security for everybody hostage release immediate ceasefire have a more just solution for that conflict reserve Palestinians rights and dignity this is the time and Democrats are the people who should be leading this discussion not anyone else we love to claim our tent is back we enjoy claiming that we are we support diversity and we stand

for the real true American values of human rights and democracy and justice and equality for everybody so we are the one who have the responsibility and the duty to carry that legacy to the finish line and the best time and the best place to do this is during the convention

and the best people to carry this are the delegates who are elected by their fellow community members and party members to represent them in that great event we did that and we got zero response so we decided how can we bring that topic to the discussion we got a taste of how the party is completely ignoring this whole topic

and how the party is intentionally decided not to include any of that topic on the platform but they invited some of the hostages family members to come speak we absolutely supported that because we feel for these families we hope we pray every day for the safety return of the hostages

and we would love to hear these stories as a reminder for all of us where the war and where the violence takes us so we were very supportive of this but also at the same time there is another victim in that equation that should also be presented and we were very saddened and disappointed to know that the other side will not be represented and the parties completely one sided on that issue

and then I arrived before the convention there was an event in Chicago sponsored to buy the Palestinian American community in Chicago and we were invited and they give us some some merch in this some some t-shirts and some flags and some stuff like this and the event took so long and like Middle Eastern love loves to talk

I took the long and I didn't have time to go back to my hotel got my bag there and then go to the reception party so I decided to just immediately group of us took an uber immediately from the event to the reception and right there they asked me to open the bag at the door my backpack so I opened and they started digging so deep into my bag and then they found the flag

immediately my bag was seized immediately and the security guard started calling his boss his boss came along and they literally cornered me in one corner and they refused to give me my bag my bag ever like they hold it strongly away from me

and then they started pulling the DNC employees were really huge tough men four of them showed up cornered me and during that time the security supervisor insisted and give me clearly like I will not let you in with this bag I will not let you in

so I I demand to give me an explanation he said I don't care I'm not gonna give you any any explanation so I suggested if I can leave my bag outside can I get in and they agreed to this and they let me in

so that give me a feel like okay there is intentional strong effort that nothing will go in and then next day was the first day of the convention the beginning of the convention would we know president Biden will be the keynote speaker so we decided to do something at that event

but the challenge here was what can you do how can you get things inside and all of those things after that we still had hope that we will have some meetings or we will have some sort of speaking engagement with the DNC and the campaign and the convention

none of this happened throughout the first day so we decided to make our voices heard and we decided we need to really force the democrats to talk about this

Emily Williams:I'm Emily Williams welcome back to beyond voting I've been talking with activists educator in 2024 uncommitted DNC delegate Esam Boraey

before the break Esam was describing his experience as a delegate with the uncommitted movement during the 2024 Democratic National Convention

on the second day of the convention he and two of his colleagues Florida DNC member Nadia Ahmed and progressive Jewish activist and delegate from Michigan

Lianne Sharon will share in decided to stage to silent protest during president Biden's keynote speech in the second part of our conversation Esam tells us about their treatment by other DNC attendees during and after the protest

the impact propel is sending voices could have on the rest of the Harris walls campaign and why he says he's not ready to give up hope and neither should you

Esam Boraey:so we decided to make our voices heard we decided to bring a banner and we wrote on this banner stop arming Israel and then we snuck the banner inside

once Biden starts speaking we waited just two minutes to three minutes one things were really quiet we start bringing the banner out and putting it up to his eyesight to be able for him

to be able to see the banner and what was written on it the response we got from DNC staff whips on the floor and our fellow delegates and convention attendees

absolutely astonishing scary in so many levels so immediately the DNC staff who run the for the whips immediately came along and they demanded us to put the banner down

and we said no we're gonna keep it up and then some of the DNC staff members started actually they were so angry at us and it started actually pulling away our banner trying to take it out of our

hands and take it away they couldn't I was I blocked their access to the banner so they couldn't do that then they start immediately bringing more and more signs to signs that we love

Joe signs and distributing these signs to everyone around us and asking them to raise the signs as high as possible then we will be able to cover the banner and block any

sights from Joe Biden to be able to see the sign so the signs went up and everyone in front of us almost had two signs in in their hands and then start chanting we love

Joe we love Joe to make sure that we are absolutely covered and absolutely invisible at the same time on on taboo fass in our back and the level above us there was members of the

union the president of the union was speaking at the on the stage few minutes before that happened he and his colleague start pulling up the banners from us as strongly as possible and one of the people who were sitting up start beating my colleagues on her head

she actually next day she had to go see a doctor in Chicago and she was diagnosed with concussion after the beating and she filed a criminal report against that party member because we succeeded in identifying them from the videos that went viral online with that physical abuse that was happening against us there was also the verbal abuse everyone around us was accusing us with every single

colorful language you could ever imagine calling us this is not your place get the f out here stop that shit and at the same time I had two main thoughts in my mind the first thought was something like this abuse is going to continue and we will be significantly

hurt because we are surrounded by at least five six hundred people who are absolutely mad and angry at us right now some of them start physically accusing us some of them start blocking the media some media showed up to film what was happening so some of them start blocking the cameras and the phones of the media not to film anything

so that was the first thought that we will get hurt so bad this is very unsafe the second thought was is if this is not our place so where is our place this is three of us as a Jewish person a hijab you woman and an immigrant raising a very peaceful banner that has zero offensive language or zero offense against anybody

and our fellow democrats who has been all night long talking to us about inclusivity in the fascism stop fascism from returning to American politics but once those brown immigrants showed up with a very peaceful protest now that's not our place now we're

we're okay to abuse them and when the secret service came up and the DNC staff came up no one asked it anyone to stop the abuse by the way their main focus was how to block our banner and get us out of the convention center then once we left

outside the abuse continued from many different people that were around and until today there's no action or reaction whatsoever from the DNC or the campaign and I will just end it with this at the democratic convention there was a hijabi woman that was beaten on her head for expressing her her beliefs she was beating until she got a concussion

until today democrats have zero reaction. Emily Williams:yeah you all did it the right way quote unquote right you follow the process that the DNC laid out for you all you all ask for language for words to be included you go about this in such a peaceful way and they ignore you and so this is what we're to be able to do in a democracy right is to be able to make our voices heard and yet instead of being met with genuine

regard let's hear what they have to say what role can this play how can we better understand where they're coming from and how it might influence what we're asking of our party it's abuse it's violence how does that feel to be met with that kind of backlash from your own party

Esam Boraey:it's a very disappointing I keep saying I'm I'm a proud democrat I don't feel safe in Trump administration as a brown Muslim immigrant don't feel safe my interests do not lie with the democratic party my interests lie with the democratic party sticking to their values

because if I will get written and abused I don't care for the person who abused me is democratic or republic and I'm getting abused by the end of the day so the only safe way for me to live in a country that I love and admire and enjoy a membership in a party that I believe in is for this party to stick to their values and their truth so telling me your better under me than the republicans we need to revisit this statement

we really do as I said I'm a proud democrat but I will never allow the party to take my vote for granted because if they feel that comfortable with my vote I will get nothing in return

my only leverage is my vote my only leverage is how to organize people like me to leverage their vote we believe in freedom we believe in democracy we believe in the American values but we do not just blindly follow whatever tells us some words we will not allow anyone to take our vote for granted or dismiss the power of our vote

Emily Williams:And when you're organized that vote is so much more powerful than if you were to just choose to withhold your vote as an individual that's what makes the uncommitted movement so strategic

what do you think the failure to acknowledge the pro-Palestinian voice at the DNC will have on the Harris waltz campaign

Esam Boraey: There are so many people who donated to Harris waltz campaign or especially Harris campaign at the beginning but I think that was 20 or 25% of the overall donations or the overall money that the campaign got

you still have 80 or 60 or 70% of the money that's coming from a very wealthy donors and those donors that have demands and have their access they have their leverage and they have their strength

so this is the first equation that we really need to think strongly about the second one is again the rooted racism that's embedded in that policy making class

I never had any faith that the policy will change from Biden to Harris I personally I didn't have faith in that I believed Biden and Harris both of them hold the same views when it comes to the Israeli Palestinian conflict

but we were hoping for a change in rhetoric and Harris that would be different we were very disappointed we couldn't reach that very low bar

but I know it's very easy or has much less consequences to side against Arabs Muslims Middle Eastern than actually doing the right thing of advocating for a more just solution

you will face a stronger scrutiny from the pro-Palestinian class in foreign policy making and also in the media and also from donors money

this is the consequence that I mean when I say taken the position that Harris did was this consequential of her than doing the right thing

Emily Williams:and I think you're right in the eyes of the establishment because essentially it's a doubling down of the status quo versus taking a different path

maybe even just slightly different because I don't think you know you just said you're asking for a shift in rhetoric which shouldn't be that big of a step for them to take

Esam Boraey:however though what she's missing what the campaign is missing is more and more Americans every day are in favor of more just an equitable approach to the Middle East politics and the Israeli Palestinian conflict

and Elykhtur Ekeli it makes more sense for the Harris walls campaign to adapt and implement and support more equitable approach to convince more and more people to vote for them in important states by moving to the left on that issue

then now it's just it doesn't make any electoral sense for them to keep sticking to that position yet they are

Emily Williams:is there a substantive difference between the democratic and Republican parties policies in Israel and Gaza

Esam Boraey:not really I think the motivations could be different maybe more in the republicans side have more religious approach to the Middle East but by the end of the day I don't think the outcomes is any different

Biden didn't change anything of Trump policies in the Middle East every act that was done by Trump is still held by Biden at the same length and the same strength as well

so there in my opinion there is no change when it comes to the Middle East politics between Republicans and Democrats

however though there is increasing numbers in both Democrats and Republicans to change our approach stop sending weapons to them to the resub spending our money in sending weapons to Israel and reinvest this money in our own lives

there is there a huge gap between what the American people asking for and what the American government is implementing and doing by hopefully by the end of the day someone would listen

Emily Williams:so what happens now post DNC have uncommitted demands changed? Esam Boraey:so the main concern of the uncommitted movement is the Israeli policy and conflict and during the convention time we were hoping that we will have representation on the convention stage and change in the platform when it comes to the Israeli policy and conflict that didn't happen so now we are hoping to push the American campaigns and the American

foreign policy understanding when it comes to the Middle East in general and the Israeli Palestinian conflict in particular and the campaign and the American administration of talking about we support ceasefire how come you keep saying we support ceasefire at the same exact minute you releasing billions and billions of dollars to keep arming the military they are refusing to adhere to a ceasefire

like it just doesn't make any sense if you are really serious and sincere about ceasefire you need to stop weaponizing they have this conventional wisdom that's dinosaur old that supporting militant dictatorship in the Middle East will secure the region will stabilize the region and secure the American interests in the Middle East

which is absolutely not true especially since 2011 and the radical changes that happened in the region and I say this as a part of rather youth movement that started in Egypt in 2007 and 2008 we revolted strongly against the old status quo in the Middle East

I was a political activist in Egypt during the Arab Spring the Egyptian revolution in 2011 during that time just for me starting building my campaign to run for the Egyptian parliament one of the main items in my agenda was number one getting the Egyptian military out of politics and make our government run by civilians in a free democratic election

number two was to hold the military in Egypt accountable for the bloodshed that happened during the Egyptian revolution that I was part of and I was a victim of as well because of that the military government arrested me and I was sent to the criminal court

and my crime was working for a human rights organization I was trialed for 18 months in Egyptian criminal court for working for a human rights organization under the military government in Egypt

and myself and my friends and many other human rights organizations lobby then advocated for years for years and years for the American administrations and American governments to stop funding the Egyptian military and the militant regimes in the region

and my logic was very simple the military government in Egypt is strengthened and empowered by the money and the aid that the American government sent to them and they use that money and these weapons to murder us and put me behind bars just for working for human rights organization and running for an office

I'm a first hand victim of this policy standing by militant authoritarian regimes in this region and when that conflict happened I noticed the same better of the American government for policy just sending weapons and sending military aid to a racist right-wing war cabinet that's sitting in Israel right now

as a first hand victim of this policy I urged and I begged and I still do the American government to stop this policy and it changed it because the status quo has changed in the Middle East

people in the Middle East now understand what's happening and everyone now understand is swungly and blames first hand the American foreign policy

so when I decided to raise a banner in the DNC convention I was pushing and loving and advocating because for 15 years of experience in this region as an activist as a political prisoner as an exile right now I have something or two to say about this policy

Emily Williams:absolutely and we need to hear from more people around the world who have been impacted first hand by US foreign policy because that's a perspective that we don't hear in US media and thank you for sharing that and I'm sorry that that happened

so as some you and your fellow members in the uncommitted movement are the reason why so many people have to pay attention to what's happening in Gaza and the uncommitted movement has been incredibly strategic

how much do you feel that the work that you all have done has moved your agenda forward?

Esam Boraey:it's very sad and disappointing to see that the only changes that we've seen so far is very minimal which a mention of ceasefire

however though we do not take that statement seriously because there is no suggested mechanisms whatsoever for this ceasefire

but we will go into keep pushing and keep organizing and keep working under the hope that before November we will find a significant change in the policy

but if the same trend will keep going on I will never accept any of the Democrats don't get establishment for the Democratic candidates or the Democratic members to blame us for losing a November Fed

because if you are not willing to truly include everyone under the big tent if you're not willing enough to stand for your values and your beliefs do not blame those who did

our stand is not secret our demands are not crazy and our efforts is not short

we have knocked on every door we have dialed every number we have talked to everyone so you know who we are you know what we stand for

so if God forbid and I say a whole heart they say this if God forbid Democrats continued that way and lost in November only themselves to blame

Emily Williams:and Esam what would the work look like under a Trump presidency? Esam Boraey:We will keep pushing and we will keep organizing to be honest with you we haven't had the discussion that far because we still hopeful

the Democrats will come along and we'll do the right thing so we haven't yet imagined second Trump administration second Trump term

we still believe in the Democratic party and we we still hold the hope that Democrats and the Harris-Wolves administration will come along to seriously include what we're hoping for

Emily Williams:yeah and so often that's what organizing is about there's this quote made popular by Miriame Kaba that's hope is a discipline

and so often as organizers we have to keep doing the hard work of raising the awareness of being unpopular in these spaces where we actually just want to have a sense of belonging and of the really difficult work of pushing people

towards the policy is that are actually more humane or that are more just and we have to hold out hope because that process is almost always much longer than we would ever want

Esam Boraey:Yeah this is very true and we are very aware of the differences between the two candidates and this is why we are pushing Kamala to the right thing because we have hope in that side

this is why we are members we are the just Democrats this way we organize for Democrats in my community organizer I ran campaigns I was a campaign manager for six different campaigns

I did work as a staffer on many other campaigns on every level from state council although it to a president I campaigned for Democrats I fundraised for Democrats I volunteered for Democrats I worked for Democrats

I did all of this because I truly believe in the value that we say we uphold or we believe in and this is why we still have hope

if God forbid will be a second term Trump of course we the work will continue stronger than ever and we will do everything we can but we still hope that it will be House walls white house and they will do the right thing of stopping that madness and genocide that's happening in Gaza right now

Emily Williams: what advice does the uncommitted movement have for voters who would typically vote in the presidential election but are struggling to vote for an administration that won't commit to a ceasefire and arms embargo

Esam Boraey: the advice will be this we all want to win in November we are praying and organizing and pushing to win in November

the right way to do this is not to ask us to be silent and push us under the rug this is not the right way the right way is for all voters out there to join us in supporting our efforts for vice president Harrison and Governor Wolves to do the right thing and stand for the right thing

then we all can really happily enjoy our parties big tent I know like the uncommitted movement we have family members who are killed in Gaza as young as months old not even one year old

so how can you ask that person to stay silent while literally children of their families being murdered right now who should change so my advice will be this since we all are very serious and sincere and aware of the danger of Trump

if we cannot provide different and more just and equitable campaign and candidate and policies that includes everybody will not going to be any different from them

the right way is to join our effort in pushing the campaign to adapt more equitable solutions for the Palestinian Israeli conflict

Emily Williams:very well said thank you and so how can listeners support the ongoing work of the uncommitted movement

Esam Boraey:share our news and our demands and social media talk to your neighbors talk to your family members and more importantly the most urgent and immediate thing is raise those questions during campaign events in your community

always always make sure the question of changing policy on Palestinian Israeli conflict is present is asked is answered in a genuine way because the internal campaign posters

is what in those meetings and collect data from those meetings once they notice the increasing numbers of supporters and voters who talk about these issues

the campaign will listen the campaign will change and believe me those events and small words matter the most to every campaign

does not matter how much money they have doesn't matter how many wealthy donorss push again is that those micro events in each individual community makes huge difference in a huge impact

and you will be part of a huge global movement pushing for justice and equality for everyone.

Emily Williams:yeah 100% your voice matters as some thank you so much this has been wonderful I know a lot of people been wanting more information about the uncommitted movement and we really got an inside view with you today so thank you

Esam Boraey:thank you so much for having me and thank you to all your listeners and anyone who would raise the question of the Palestinian conflict in their community events and demand genuine answer to it

thank you so much and I apologize if I talk too much I'm from Egypt and I'm a professor so I talk for living.

Emily Williams:I really enjoy talking with Esam despite us covering some pretty somber subjects during our interview I was genuinely struck by his optimism

and his ability to get into the specific and granular details of a topic and then discuss it with nuance was really welcomed and impressive

he strikes me as the kind of person who can hold two things in his head at once and still be able to discuss a hard topic in an honest yet constructive way

as some knows the harsh reality of toxic catastrophic terrible foreign policy and the fallout from that policy isn't some traumatizing ordeal he has to imagine it's something he's actually lived

at the same time he's committed to fully exercising every aspect of the democratic process available to him in this country he's in the streets and he's in the voting booth

he's on the campaign trail and he's organizing in the community and I really believe that especially in this election we have to do more of that

we can hold that neither the Republican nor Democratic candidate has an acceptable policy on Gaza and we can still commit to showing up for this election in a really constructive way

and one of those ways might be voting for a party that exists outside the typical duopoly of American politics

we'll talk more about that next week still I think the uncommitted movement has given us a great example to learn from

they are amplifying the urgency of the crisis in Gaza in the deep grief felt among their members some of whom have endured agonizing personal losses

they are motivating others to join them and they're committing to the fight for the long haul

and ultimately that's the lesson I hope we can take from this the fight for a better world is one we must commit to for the long haul even when it takes longer than we think it should

earlier in the interview I quoted the prison abolitionist and activist Maryam Kaba hope is a discipline and so much of organizing is developing the discipline to stick to the strategy

revise the strategy and then keep going tell us how are the candidates positions on Gaza influencing your vote

what are your thoughts on working within our current political binary to affect meaningful change

leave us a comment on IG at Arcus Center or drop it in your five star review of the show

please visit us at Arcus Center dot K Z O O dot E D U you can find Esam on IG Twitter and all other socials at SM barai

that's E S A M B O R A E Y you can also email him and learn more about how you can get involved with the uncommitted movement at SM barai at gmail.com

or visit uncommitted movement dot com for more info if you like today's show let us know share the episode with your friends and your family

thanks again for joining us on beyond voting see you next time

[Music]

beyond voting is hosted by me Emily Williams Keisha T K Dutas is our executive producer

Kristen Bennett is our producer in this episode was written by Kristen Bennett and me our song designer and engineer is Manny Faces

marketing is courtesy of Fabian Mickins in our music is provided by motion array special thanks to my team at the Arcus Center for Social Justice Leadership

Quintin Crimson Tamara Winter and Cara beyond voting is a production of Philos Future Media