Emily Williams:Every day on the news, it's the same story.

Emily Williams:Whether on Basic Cable or newspaper up ads were constantly

Emily Williams:inundated with a singular message, this is the most important election of our lives.

Emily Williams:This critical election will determine the future of American democracy,

Emily Williams:and we must vote to save it. But then there's the other stuff we're seeing on the news.

Emily Williams:Rising fascism at home in abroad, gut wrenching scenes in Gaza and the West Bank,

Emily Williams:political parties fractured and in disarray, all of which would make

Emily Williams:it an easy decision, voting for the party that we believe is right.

Emily Williams:It makes that hard, and it makes voting for who we believe is the best candidate, even harder.

Emily Williams:Let's be honest, this is really demoralizing. Voters feel burned and burn out.

Emily Williams:So what do you do when you're stuck between voting your values and using your vote as harm reduction?

Emily Williams:How do we think about all those complexities and then weigh those factors in the voting booth?

Emily Williams:And more importantly, if we don't want to be in this position again,

Emily Williams:what do we do in between elections to actually build a socially just world?

Emily Williams:I'm Emily Williams, Executive Director of the Arcus Center for Social Justice

Emily Williams:Leadership at Kalamazoo College. This is Beyond Voting.

Emily Williams:This podcast has rooted in our conviction that democracy requires more participation than just voting.

Emily Williams:It's up to all of us to take action if we want to see real change.

Emily Williams:We'll feature conversations with leaders, activists, and educators discussing the state of our

Emily Williams:country's institutions, ongoing systems of oppression, and most importantly, how we the people

Emily Williams:can take critical actions in pursuit of true equity and justice.

Emily Williams:To kick off our beyond voting series, I want to talk about something I think a lot of listeners

Emily Williams:can relate to, wrestling with the decision to vote or not in the 2024 presidential election.

Emily Williams:I think it's fair to say that this presidential election cycle has been

Emily Williams:fraught. Polls were showing that young voters, the people of color, who have valid reasons for being

Emily Williams:disenchanted with the electoral process, weren't motivated by either candidate to even cast a ballot.

Emily Williams:And others were determined to withhold their vote and protest.

Emily Williams:That coupled with a disastrous performance by President Biden in the first presidential debate,

Emily Williams:had political pundits all but guaranteeing a landside win for former president Trump,

Emily Williams:and progressive voters in a state of crippling anxiety over the future of our democracy.

Emily Williams:And that left many of us asking ourselves, is this it? Did our ancestors really struggle

Emily Williams:and die for us to have the right to choose between Joe Biden and Donald Trump?

Emily Williams:For many, then anxiety was put on hold when vice president Kamala Harris was positioned as a new

Emily Williams:presumptive democratic nominee. But with moving questions about her policy positions on Gaza,

Emily Williams:immigration, policing, healthcare, stagnant wages and rising costs, it seems the question still

Emily Williams:remains in many voters' minds. Is there candidate running who truly represents my values?

Emily Williams:With that, I'm so excited to introduce our first guest. She's a perfect person to help me

Emily Williams:wade through these confusing, ever shifting electoral waters. Dr. Michelle Taylor,

Emily Williams:or as she's better known in activist spaces and online, Feminista Jones is a writer, educator,

Emily Williams:public speaker and community activist whose work centers around race and culture, feminism,

Emily Williams:and intersectionality. She's the award-winning author of the critically acclaimed book,

Emily Williams: Reclaiming our space, how black feminists are changing the world from the tweets to the streets.

Emily Williams: And she's also a freelance contributor, featured in the New York Times,

Emily Williams:Out, Essence and many other outlets. When I talked to Feminista Jones, it was shortly after the

Emily Williams:Democratic Party wrapped its week-long national convention in Chicago. And she had a lot to say about

Emily Williams:the candidates, their platforms, and the political theater she saw in display. We talked about where

Emily Williams:your vote is going to have the most impact, voting as harm reduction, and the critical importance of

Emily Williams:political education. Feminista Jones, welcome to Beyond voting. Feminista Jones:Thank you so much for having me.

Feminista Jones:It's my honor and my pleasure for real. Emily Williams:We're so happy to have you. Let's just jump right in. Tell

Emily Williams:us what impact does voting have on one day achieving representation and social justice at the local,

state, and federal levels. Feminista Jones: Well, I think to the average voter, they want to know and feel that

their vote matters. Feminista Jones: They want to feel like they are actively participating in what they've been told

is a democracy, right? Feminista Jones: And I choose my words carefully here because I understand the United States

is not a democracy. Feminista Jones: I think people want to know, you know, I cast this vote. I selected this person,

this person won. Feminista Jones: Now I want them to work for me because I'm their constituent, you know,

that I put them in office. Feminista Jones: And I think what ends up happening is that some folks become disillusioned

when they don't feel that that's what's happening. Feminista Jones: I do think on the local, like the city levels and

the state levels, you're more likely to see the impact of your vote and the results, like you may

vote for this council person and that council person devotes all their time and energy to making the

small area where you live better. Feminista Jones:And you'll feel that. And so you feel like you're part of the

process and I definitely encourage people to participate in that. Feminista Jones:However, I think as we get higher

and we get higher up, that's when I think the waters get a little muddy and folks start to question

whether or not their vote actually matters. Feminista Jones:And I think all the way up to the federal level when you

have things like the Electoral College, like the Electoral College kind of defeats the purpose of a

true democracy. Feminista Jones: And so, you know, people have to wrestle with, you know, I'm casting my vote,

but all the delegates in my state went to someone else. Feminista Jones: So what does this mean? You know,

49% of us actually wanted this person and you know, what's going on? Feminista Jones:So I think that with a lot of the

confusion, we end up with a lot of people that are disillusioned. Feminista Jones:And I think that starts to have an

impact on how people choose to vote and how often they vote right right now. Feminista Jones: We the last election,

I think we have 66% of eligible voters voted for the president. Feminista Jones: And that's ridiculous, right? And

and then you go to the local levels, right? Feminista Jones: I think of, you know, the most recent mayor in Philadelphia

during her primary, I think she barely got 100,000 people to vote for her in a city of 1.2 million. Feminista Jones: And

then when she ran for the major election, I don't even know if she got 200,000 votes. Feminista Jones: And again,

this is a city of 1.2 million. So what's really going on? Feminista Jones:These are the kinds of things that I think

about, but I do think that people have more of an impact on a local level. Emily Williams:And that's that's helpful.

I mean, especially those numbers in Philadelphia, if the mayor won with only 200,000 votes in a city of

1.2 million, what is going on? Feminista Jones: Black. Yeah. Right.Emily Williams: What is going on? And the same time,

are we too reliant on electoral politics to make substantive change? Do we put too much emphasis on the vote?

Feminista Jones: Oh, 100%. That's why, like, I guess I'm struggling right now because I see people, you know,

really going like all in pouring their money into so much in their efforts and their energy

to focus on this. Feminista Jones: And I'm like, well, where are we? When the local people were trying to get

these after school programs going, where will y'all when they were, they needed money for their

gun violence, you know, their anti gun violence work? Feminista Jones:Where were y'all when they were trying to open

a new daycare center because the people, you know, the children didn't have anywhere to go. Feminista Jones: I didn't

see y'all around there doing that, you know what I mean? Feminista Jones: So it's like, you got all this energy

for this federal election that happens once every four years when your local community really needs

you to step up and to do that. Feminista Jones: And I think a lot of people rely on their presidential vote

as like their marker of their contribution to their, you know, in their civic duty. Feminista Jones: And

sure, okay, that is part of your civic duty. But your civic duty is also to kind of show up

locally. We're seeing, you know, and I'm going to keep talking about Philadelphia, but we're

seeing the effects of that now. Feminista Jones: There's so many people that are saying they're disappointed

in the mayor. Feminista Jones: And I'm just like, well, not even a fifth of the population voting.

Like, what do you expect to happen? Feminista Jones: You, you kind of get what you get. So I think that when people

are talking about what they should be doing, you shouldn't just be relying on a vote. Feminista Jones: You,

you should actually be active in your local communities and you should be showing up in

volunteering and devoting your energy to right where it's going to where the people need it the most,

you know, and I don't, I don't necessarily think that's on Capitol Hill. Feminista Jones: I think they need you

right down the street.Emily Williams: Yeah, yeah, 100%. And in many ways at the local level, and in communities,

particularly working with young people or meeting people's needs at the community level,

that's also where political consciousness can be developed, right? Emily Williams:Where we can do that education,

which then also would have a different impact on national elections, right? Emily Williams: So I think that's

a really good point. And I want to go back to something that you said a few minutes ago. Emily Williams:You said that

the United States is not a democracy. Emily Williams:So what are we? Emily Williams: And what could a healthy, well-functioning

democracy do for us? Emily Williams: And then is there anywhere else in the world where we see an example of that?

Feminista Jones: Well, you know, they say we're a democratic or public or whatever, but I believe we're an oligarchy,

and I believe that we are run by the wealthy. Feminista Jones: We're run by a few wealthy people who make the decisions,

and who pour their money into people who are going to make the decisions that they want them to make.

Feminista Jones: And so I think that if, you know, and I'm not trying to be snarky here, but I do believe that, you know,

we learned in American history that this is not actually a democracy, which is why I'm really

interested in all this talk about democracy these days. Feminista Jones: I'm like, where did this come from? Feminista Jones: For me,

I look at the 2016 election, right? Feminista Jones: Were Hillary Clinton got millions more of the popular vote,

right? Feminista Jones: So that means millions more people of those who voted wanted her to be president,

like, like not even like 200,000. Feminista Jones: We're talking like three, four million people. Feminista Jones: And because of our

electoral college, because of how we do this so-called democracy, the person who the people wanted

didn't win. Feminista Jones: That is disgusting. I don't know any other way to say it, especially because we know

that the electoral college has racist roots, right? Feminista Jones: It's designed to make sure that, you know, black people

can't have their voices be heard. Feminista Jones: And then when you see the voter suppression around the country,

you know, it is very much alive and well. Feminista Jones: In terms of other countries, I'm not sure that a true

democracy can exist in the same world where patriarchy exists, where racism, you know, exists, where

any of these kinds of oppressive systems exist because there's always going to be a group or a

person or, you know, what have you, that's going to be greedy. Feminista Jones: And they're going to put themselves

ahead of the population, you know, the United States politicians do it. Feminista Jones: They all put themselves first.

They put the interests of the people who fund them first. Feminista Jones:So I'm not sure we've ever seen

that in any modern times. We can go back to ancient times and kind of discuss what that looked like,

maybe in the continent and of Africa and things like that.Feminista Jones: But now I don't think we can point to any

place in this world where there's a true democracy and where the will of the people is

untampered, unaltered, respected, honored, where the people representing the folks move with integrity

all the time. Feminista Jones: Naw we don't have that. That doesn't exist. Feminista Jones: And I'm not sure it can exist

these days with all the trappings of capitalism and all that good stuff. Emily Williams: And you know, it's also that

with patriarchy, with racism, all of these things, there's also just going to be unfair power advantages.

Emily Williams: And not only is it about money, but people will be able in willing to leverage that power

advantage over others in order to maintain that power. Feminista Jones: 100%. Even if race wasn't an issue, even if

gender wasn't an issue, people are always going to find a way to other people. Right. Feminista Jones: And that's

coming from this inherent need to survive. Feminista Jones: And unfortunately, not enough of us believe that if we

just we have just enough of what we need, let's make sure everyone else has it and folks get scared. Feminista Jones:

And that's where the greed comes in. Feminista Jones: So they want a hoard resources. Feminista Jones:They want to make sure that I

have enough for today, this week, next year and 10 years from now. Feminista Jones: And I don't care what other people

have. Feminista Jones:When instead, we could come together and be like, is everybody good this month? All right. Cool.

Is everybody good next month? Feminista Jones: Cool. We don't think like that. Emily Williams: Yeah. Yeah. But I think you did a great

job of just describing that for us and breaking it down for us. Emily Williams: So thank you for that.

Emily Williams:You know, we just talked about how like actual democracy doesn't exist in the US, but

maybe we can kind of think in the future a little bit and think about what would

a real multi-racial democracy look like in the US. Emily Williams: And then we can talk about whether or not that's

actually attainable. Feminista Jones: So first, we have to stop taking in terms of race, right? Because we know that

race was something that was constructed by some European male PhDs, maybe like 150 years ago. Feminista Jones: It's

not a real thing, right? Feminista Jones: We could think about culture. And I think that culture is way more important

because culture allows us to think about what unifies people and what connects people, right?

shared language, shared rituals, shared art, shared traditions, right? Feminista Jones: And I think that those cross

racial lines in many ways, they cross gender lines, class lines. Feminista Jones: So I think that when we

when we focus more on culture, I think we get further in the conversation. And I do believe that

the United States can have a true multi-cultural harmonious society when white cisgender,

heterosexual men decide to give up power.Feminista Jones: And I don't see that happening. I've never seen people in

power willing. Feminista Jones: We give it up to other people. So, you know, we know the revolution. And there is

tell us we had to take it, you know, as many coos as the United States funds to overthrow people.

I think we totally understand what's required of that. Feminista Jones: You know, people ask me all this time,

like, what would you imagine the world looks like? Well, I think that we go back to some of the

earliest principles that our community based and community oriented and this idea of reciprocity

and justice and harmony and balance and fairness and all these things that guided us for literally

thousands of years. Feminista Jones: And we could go back to believing in the value of every person in our society

that everybody has a contribution.Feminista Jones: And just because it's one person's contribution doesn't look

like another, it doesn't mean that they're any less valuable. Feminista Jones: And I think that's one of the problems

that we have in the United States is that we assign value to people based on what they contribute

to our economy. Feminista Jones: And that's wrong. And so I think we have to step away from that. Feminista Jones: We have to totally

divest of patriarchy and racism and classism and ableism and queer phobia and all those things

if we're talking ideals, right? Feminista Jones: We divest of all those things and we just make a world where

everyone has the opportunity to do what makes their hearts sing and their souls fire up. Feminista Jones: And

I'm just not sure that the majority of people are willing to even accept that kind of society,

you know, where where love is the rule and respect and mutual honor and integrity. Feminista Jones: I think these

things that scare people. Feminista Jones: So if I was building a new world, I would build one like we wouldn't have

these state divisions. We'd have communities and each community comes together and maybe select

their own representative. And these are niche communities. Feminista Jones: And they come together in those ways and

they have very real conversations and really consider who they're representing. I think,

unfortunately, in our system, people don't actually, they get these elected positions, they pander to

us, they want our money, they want to do that. Feminista Jones: But then when they get in office, they forget who they

are beholden to. They forget that this is a government for the people of the people and they lose

sight of that. Feminista Jones: And I really just want to see a society where people have their voices heard and

their needs are met. Feminista Jones: And we're not fighting to see who's going to make the most millions or, you

know, have the biggest, most successful business or things like that. Feminista Jones: Now, I know that that's

idealist, but that's the goal. Feminista Jones: And so I'm not going to move away from that. I know that we can

be better humans than what we are right now. Feminista Jones: And we just have to believe in that.

Emily Williams: Yeah, definitely, definitely. And going back to what you said earlier that we won't have a

multiracial democracy until white cisgender men give up power. Emily Williams: And I'm reminded of a post that I

saw on social media from a friend and someone who's been a colleague and who's been very much involved

in the Democratic Party. Emily Williams: The first night of the DNC, he said that he saw something that

almost never happens in that it's an old white man who ceded power to a younger woman of color.

Emily Williams: And I thought to myself, well, he only did that because he was so pressured to do so, right? And so

you're going back to Europe.

Emily Williams: Well, right. I mean, we could talk about what the DNC actually was in terms of romanticization and

a lot of other things, but that just also reminds me that we can't necessarily just look to people to

do the right thing on their own that the organizing and the pressure actually helps people do

what they should do anyway.

Feminista Jones:You know, I think it's interesting. I love that you bring that up because I don't see it as

him like ceding power or anything like that. Feminista Jones:I agree with you, you know, the DNC, particularly

Jimmy Clyburn down there in South Carolina, who I believe is a true kingmaker. I think it's more

that they put her on a glass cliff. Feminista Jones: And I think people should be mindful anytime that they put

a black woman or an Indian woman or some, you know, who is not white in a position of power,

you have to think, what's wrong? What's going to happen? Like something is wrong, something's messy,

something needs to be cleaned up because the history tells us that it shows us that and that's

that glass cliff that I believe that the DNC is putting Harris on. Feminista Jones:I think that people are going

to try to romanticize that. I don't think that her identity is all that important. I don't.

And a lot of people are, you know, kind of upset with me because I'm a black woman who isn't

as I said in one of my posts, I said, I'm not falling to my knees praying for her to win.

I don't care who you are. Feminista Jones: I don't like your platform. I don't like your platform. And if you have

the same platform as somebody I said, I wasn't going to vote for, then why would I vote for you too?

Emily Williams: In Kamala Harris has like a different appeal because she is a woman of color because she's younger.

But in many ways and in her closing speech at the DNC,

it was like she had to come out even stronger or more resolute about these policies that actually

are wildly unpopular. Feminista Jones: Yeah. And did she have to or was that a choice? Emily Williams: Well, no, no, I hear that. No,

I think it's totally a choice. I don't want to take her agency away in this at all. Right.

Feminista Jones: Like she, she didn't have to say any of those things she chose to because of what is required of her

at this particular juncture. Feminista Jones: And you know, there are people that are looking for a leader that they

code is masculine and they only allow for masculine people to be assertive and strong and things

like that. So in some ways, she has to perform masculinity in order for them to accept her because we

can't accept that women are also strong and assertive in all those kinds of things. Feminista Jones: We have yet to see

her wear a skirt or dresses. Oh, interesting. It doesn't wear much makeup. You know, she's doing the

Hillary Clinton thing and she's got to play with the boys. Feminista Jones: And I just find that incredibly fascinating.

Emily Williams: Well, I didn't even thought about that I had to see her wear a skirt. I mean, I'm not necessarily

looking for that, but that's a really good point. And it just shows you how curated everything is

about their presentation. Right? Feminista Jones: And that's what political strategizing is about. Right? I'm not

knocking them for that. Feminista Jones:They are absolutely doing exactly what they need to do to win.

Feminista Jones: My only question is how important is the win with regard to the sacrifices that are being made

and the people who are seemingly being either left behind or disregarded or thrown under the bus is

the win that important. Feminista Jones:And apparently the answer is yes, the win is that important. We are going to

put more people on the DNC stage who are currently Republicans and will only vote for us this one time.

Feminista Jones: Then we are going to put people who have been longtime Democrats working in their communities

upholding the Democratic platform. Feminista Jones: We're not going to give them the time on the stage. And I just

I find it all really theatrical. Emily Williams: Interesting. It's certainly that I agree with you that it's certainly

theatrical. Emily Williams: So when we think about voting in harm reduction in this upcoming presidential

election, what calculus are we really making? Emily Williams: I mean reproductive rights, Palestine, another Trump

presidency, like really, what are we doing when it comes to harm reduction in this election?

Feminista Jones: Oh, you know, I love that. I love that conversation. And I love when people are able to have it in

nuanced ways rather than, oh, you're just giving your vote to Trump. Feminista Jones: And I'm like, oh, that's

time for them. I'm way smarter than that. Feminista Jones: Let's actually, you know, have this conversation.

So when we want to talk about harm reduction, right, this is a conversation that comes up a lot

with the people that I'm in community with. Feminista Jones: And they're like, oh, man, you know, whatever we can do

to not have another Trump presidency. Feminista Jones:And I say, hold up, hold up, hold up, stop. Stop. If they want

Trump to be president, they'll make it happen, right? We already see he's already setting us up to say,

you know, this whole thing about so-called illegal immigrants are being allowed to vote. Feminista Jones: And

all this stuff that they're already talking to be able to challenge this so much so that they

had to create a pac that is raising funds to be able to challenge him when he challenges the election.

Feminista Jones: They already know it's going to happen, right? So they're setting this whole thing up. We already know

that we're headed that way. We're thinking, all right. So we need the Democrats to win so that Trump

loses. Feminista Jones: Okay. So if Trump loses, how does that stop heritage foundation supported elected officials

in the Senate or the House of, you know, representatives from being elected and going in and stopping

everything that Harris says she wants to do? Feminista Jones: Why do people think this is simply about Trump and

about Harris and that if he wins, then Project 2025 goes into effect, what makes you think it won't

go into effect with Harris being president? Feminista Jones:Like I'm trying to understand why people think that

because they have been advising conservative presidents since Reagan. Feminista Jones: That's 40 years that they've

been doing this. And if we look policy wise, we see that many of their policies have been enacted

by Democratic presidents, including Barack Obama, right? Feminista Jones: So this whole fear mongering around Project 2025

let me know that no disrespect, but a lot of people are simply uninformed and they're voting based on

not having any real information. Feminista Jones:So harm reduction for me looks like educating people. It looks like

when I do my streaming and I do political theater with Dr. T, it's just like, yeah, let's really just

talk about the reality here. Feminista Jones: I just did an abortion thing yesterday. It's like there's all these myths

and untruths. Feminista Jones: Let's just get the real information out. And I think that education is the key as much as

that sounds cliche. Feminista Jones: It really is the key. And that's the most harm reduction that we can do is making

sure that we're educating people that they know the truth. Feminista Jones:So that when they go and they cast that vote,

it is an informed vote. Now you can know all the truth and all these things and still make the

decision you make and you can hold your nose if you want to. Feminista Jones: And that's fine. I will never tell people

who to vote for or who not to vote for, but at least we can be informed. Feminista Jones: Now in terms of voting for

the Dems to prevent Trump, I just don't see how that makes a whole lot of sense unless you don't

understand how the government works and you don't understand how lobbyists works and you don't

understand how this oligarchy works. Feminista Jones:They will run whatever they want to run. They will do whatever

they want to do. Feminista Jones: And as we see the Democratic Party move to the right as evidenced by the DNC

and the things that they said on that stage night after night, I'm not sure we are have to worry too much

about President Trump when the border policy that Harris was talking about is a Republican one.

Feminista Jones:So if we're saying that we don't want Trump because of deportations and the border, well Biden's

been deporting people back to Haiti since April and they've adopted this Republican border policy.

So what's the difference? Feminista Jones:And you have to start bringing things up like that, like

think about abortion. She keeps saying to people, if you put this on my desk, I will sign it,

which essentially leaves it up to Congress, which essentially means that if they heritage

foundation places enough people or if the conservatives get enough people, that is never going to happen

while she's in office. And she knows it. Feminista Jones: She knows it's not going to happen. So these are the kinds

of things that I want people to think about. Feminista Jones: You want to vote for her because you believe it's going

to protect abortion rights. It's not. So when you make the decision that you make at least let it be

based in truth and not fear mark or mongering and misinformation. Emily Williams: Also it makes me think about

that people don't necessarily fully understand the way that our government works. Emily Williams:But I think part

of the reason why anybody but Trump, why that logic works is because so many people were

totally asleep until Trump got elected. Emily Williams:So many people thought that he would never get elected.

And then he got elected and people started paying attention to just what he was doing in office

and the things that he was saying. Emily Williams: And so I think for people,

there was so much sensationalism around it that I think that's really visceral for people. Emily Williams:So when they

think about Trump, they think about a dictatorship that resonates with them. Feminista Jones:Well, I'm sorry. I just

ask people, when you say the things that he did in office, what are you talking about aside from

the whole COVID thing, which he totally mishandled? I'm always asking people, what did he do when he was

in office that affected you? Feminista Jones: Most people don't have an answer. So what is that? Feminista Jones: Again,

well, I think you had somebody who had 1400 vacancies in his administration because he didn't bother

to hire anybody. Feminista Jones:He had someone who was facing all these these other issues that he had. He wasn't really

doing much. He had a he had a ban against Muslim people and I tell people all the time that's part

of the larger immigration plan that the Democrats are currently supporting. Feminista Jones: He tried to get rid of ACA.

He couldn't. There were a number of things that he said he was going to do that he wasn't able to

do again because of Congress.Feminista Jones: So again, and again, I am so not trying to be flippant here, but I'm just

trying to make the point that a lot of people are voting completely lacking information, knowledge,

about how any of this works. Feminista Jones: Somebody said on my Instagram, the human body cannot survive another

four years of Trump. I said, are you? What are you talking about? What is Trump going to do related to

the Supreme Court that Harris can't do? Feminista Jones:Neither one of them is going to have an effect on the Supreme

Court, okay? Feminista Jones: Because nobody's retiring and nobody's dying anytime soon, right? Okay. What are they going

to do about abortion? Trump can't do anything more about abortion than Harris can do about abortion.

Feminista Jones: Again, Congress is right there. So with all that fear mongering, I'm just questioning. I'm just like,

what are you talking about? Emily Williams:Yeah. And I think, you know, the part about Trump is that,

and this is what I mean by like the sensationalism, you know, it was like just reading the headlines or

hearing what he said or, you know, the most recent racist comment.Emily Williams: I think that's what people

mean when they're saying like, my body can't take it. Emily Williams: And I also think that he's learned since his

last presidency. Emily Williams: And I think that a lot of the fail saves that we had in his last term have been

removed, particularly like the presidential immunity. Emily Williams:I think that that's real. Emily Williams:That's really

concerning to me. Feminista Jones: Yeah, it concerns me for anybody that's in that office for anybody that Harris wouldn't

also use that. Emily Williams:And that's also my point is that I think that anybody but Trump, it's also just

given free license to the dems to do whatever they want. Emily Williams:That's that's also concerning to me because

in many ways she came out much harder than I think Biden had come out on issues related to the

military related to what's happening in Gaza. Emily Williams: So I think we have to also be careful not to just

give free license to the Democrats because they're not Trump, right? Feminista Jones: Because she's right of Biden.

She's right of Obama. Walls pulls them a little bit back, but she's to the right of them. Feminista Jones: And I think,

I think this is what's happening. And this is what I've been talking more about is that there are a lot

of people that are just fine with that. Feminista Jones: They love it. They love her exactly as she is. They love this

administration exactly as it is. Feminista Jones: They love that tough on crime, most lethal force. They want to hear

that. Feminista Jones: And they have been waiting in the wings for a Democratic candidate to come and say those

things because they've been residing in that right of center, but I'm not racist and I'm not this.

Feminista Jones: And I'm just waiting for a Democrat that comes and is actually speaking to me. And I think that's

what's happening. Feminista Jones: And that's why I'm saying to people, I'm like, yeah, like, let people, how do you

want to vote? Because a lot of people are now feeling represented. And we have to be honest about that.

I'm I'm like left of leftist. Feminista Jones: So nobody's ever going to represent me, right? But I can recognize

that the majority of the of the United States voting public is like in the middle. Feminista Jones: And they,

they want more of these kinds of centrist values. That's why they loved Obama. But now it's like,

they do want to see more of that like force and that strength. Feminista Jones: And because they feel like Trump made

us look weak and, you know, silly and they want us to go back to that. Feminista Jones: And that's okay too. Like, listen,

vote your conscience Ain't about to be me, but vote your conscience.

Emily Williams:This is beyond voting. We're back with the author, educator and community activist,

feminista Jones. Emily Williams:Before the break, feminista shared her belief that we as activists are often too

focused on Capitol Hill and not focused enough on how we can affect positive change in our communities.

Emily Williams: While I agree that we can achieve more substantial and media change by being in community with

our neighbors and organizing, I also wanted to hear her thoughts on what we can do as activists

to hold our elected officials accountable at every level from city council to the White House.

Emily Williams:In the second half of our conversation, we talk about the uncommitted movement,

our feelings on our two party political system and what abstaining from voting could mean for

the most vulnerable and marginalized among us. Emily Williams:So you said on IG that it's not wrong to ask that

your party sticks to its values. Emily Williams: And there's a pervasive idea that will hold those candidates

accountable and push them on social justice issues that matter to us after they're elected.

But that so rarely happens, right? Emily Williams: And we've seen this in the Biden administration.

So, right. But so what are the strategies to actually hold our elected officials accountable

while they're in office? Feminista Jones: You cannot. You understand? I tell people that that's my joke is like you

don't have enough money to hold an elected official accountable. Feminista Jones Like I said, on the local level,

when you are there and you can actually go a few blocks down and their office is right there and you

can knock on the door and say, Hey, I want to have a conversation. Feminista Jones: That is very different because that

person is representing maybe like 25,000 people and you can have that conversation and say,

listen, this park over here, that slide is too hot. It's burning the kids. Can you fix that? And it'll

get fixed, right? Feminista Jones: You know, this, this street light here is broken. We need that done. I want people to

do more of that because that actually improves our day to day, you know, material conditions. Feminista Jones: But when

people say, well, I'm just going to hold her accountable, she doesn't know who you are. Feminista Jones: You know, money. Now, if you

have $10 million and you say, Hey, I have $10 million to go towards this effort. Can I have a conversation

with you? Feminista Jones: Well, that's a little bit different because that's how American politics work, right? So in

order to masquerade as a democracy, you have to have buy in from the people and the biggest buy-in is

voting, right? Feminista Jones:And so people believe, if I go and vote, I'm a part of this process, but they don't

realize that between the electoral college, the big money lobbyists and these super PACs and all

this campaign funding nonsense that went out the window years ago that there's not really much

you can do because as we saw when people tried to hold her accountable, she said, I'm speaking.

I'm speaking. Feminista Jones: Okay. All right. We get it. You're speaking, but they also have, you know, something

that they'd like to say. Feminista Jones: So for me, instead of talking about holding people accountable,

I want you to take that energy and redirect it to your community because I know that there's some,

something in your community that needs some work and needs some money. Feminista Jones: It needs some energy.

And I want you to go and do that. You're not holding a president accountable after they've been

elected. Emily Williams: I'm with you. I don't think that we've really seen it. See where activists can then hold

presidents accountable after they're in office. And in so many ways, they want to get elected. Emily Williams:That's

the prize for them. And when they're in office, they already have it. So it's a good point that you're

making. Feminista Jones: I think some of the best accountability that I've seen has been, you know, the activist groups

who have just said, all right, we're going to pivot. Feminista Jones:We're not focusing on that election stuff or

where focused on how can we affect local policing? How can we, you know, the district attorney? How do

we make sure we get the right district attorney? And how do we make sure we get the right judges?

Feminista Jones:And like how many judges run unopposed and no one even knows that they exist? So I think that when

folks start redirecting and putting their energy, you know, beyond, like you said, beyond that vote,

and more into their community, that's when we start to see the real change. Feminista Jones: And that's the change

that affects people's daily lives. And so I will always encourage more people to do that kind of stuff.

Emily Williams:Yeah. And I think also the other side of that is that that's where regular everyday people actually

feel the change. And then they can believe that change is possible on a larger level. Feminista Jones: And they

build on that. And then maybe they try to elect those people who have been doing this work locally.

Feminista Jones:They're like, well, maybe we can boost them up to Senator or boost them up to Governor because

of how they have already represented us. Emily Williams:Right. Feminista Jones: And if they're lucky, those people actually stay

true to the values that they have, we have yet to see it. But we can believe that taking a local

council person and pushing that person up and through the ranks. And if they hold on to those

values, then that's where I think the change can happen. Emily Williams: Definitely. I agree with that.

So okay, there's a movement of voters that have not committed to any presidential candidate

until a candidate commits to a ceasefire. Emily Williams: And now they've changed their call to ensure

that there's an arms embargo for Israel. What impact do you think the uncommitted movement

has had or will have on this election? Emily Williams: And what lessons of any will the Democratic Party take

from them? Feminista Jones: So I was an uncommitted voter in the primary. I'm among 700,000 people across the country

who voted uncommitted. That is not a small number of people. So 700,000 people, a good chunk of them

from states that you must win. Feminista Jones:Swing states that you must win. And your response is now we're not

going to put them on. Feminista Jones: Give me not going to give them five minutes. Okay. Well, now we have different

demands. Now it's arms embargo. We were actually willing to work with you on that light ceasefire talk.

But now it's like, we're not easing up vice president Harris said I've had a commitment to Israel

since I was planting trees for them as a child. And I will always support Israel's right to

you, you know, all this stuff. Feminista Jones: So if you believe that they're going to have an arms embargo,

I want you to let that go, baby. Let that go. That's not going to happen. And so there's people who

were just like, no, we're not voting for you. And that is their right. The impact of that is this.

And it's some people this all the time, you know, where I live is a solidly blue state.

There are people that live in solidly red states. Feminista Jones:Trump is going to get those delegates,

you know, Harris is going to get those delegates. But when you vote uncommitted or when you,

you know, vote for third party or another party or what have you one, you're helping them in future

elections, right? Feminista Jones: Because campaign finances are distributed publicly and you know, based on what

votes you get. When you go and you vote for them, it tells your local, you know, jurisdiction tells

your state it tells what have you that, you know, oh, we got 20,000 people that support them.

So the next time they run, they can cite that and be like, we need to get some of this public

funding too, you know, because we actually on the ballot, we have enough people to support us,

give us some of this public campaign funds as well. Feminista Jones:So your vote does help in that way. And like I

said, it's also sends a message. So you could be supporting that movement to disrupt this two party,

you know, system. Feminista Jones: You're also sending a very clear message to them that, you know, there are people

who ain't rocking with you and they would have long time people that have supported this party

have now defected. And what does that mean for the future of your party? Now as the dems are moving

to the right, they may not actually care that there's almost three quarters of a million of us who

aren't going to vote for them because maybe they believe they'll pick up some of the more moderate

Republicans at the same time. Feminista Jones:We're also the people that are doing the work that you say you want

to do for the American people, you know, you want to start these programs. Well, who do you think

are running these programs? Who are carrying out these programs? You've just alienated so many of

them. Feminista Jones: You you've disillusioned so many people. You got younger people who are just like, I don't believe

in any of this. You have a lot of work to do. And I think that that's what the message that the

uncommitted voters are sending and, you know, they're protesitng. And I just want to be very clear

to listeners. It is not simply about Gaza. And yes, free Palestinian people, you know, we need an

arms embargo. But part of that is because we just sent them $3.2 billion. But yet we're not

canceling all people's student loans. Feminista Jones: We're not canceling all medical debt. You're not providing

free lunches for all children. You know, where could 3.2 billion dollars go here in the United States?

It could go to so many things that could that the Democrats say that they support. Feminista Jones: And yet

it's going towards bombs. And that's not cool. And so it's not just a single issue thing. It's about

American foreign policy. It is about American taxes, how the how the money is being spent,

the defense budget. It's about all these things. And people care about all of these things. So

the implication, I think it's going to be real interesting, especially because West and Abdullah

and Stein were are like, they're all in this together. Like they all support each other. Feminista Jones:And they're

like they're starting to all drum up the votes that the Democrats need because Harris is still neck

and neck with this clown.Emily Williams: Right. Yeah. And you know, dare I say something like to be perceived as

like wildly unpopular. But I think she's not beating him by a lot because she's not distinguishing

herself enough from him. Emily Williams: And I think people are smart enough to know that. Feminista Jones:She stole his no taxes on

tips thing. Like come on. You know, she didn't have. So people were getting on her because she didn't

have much of a policy. Feminista Jones: And I think that that's important voters. I mean, I think that likability is

number one, but voters do want to see like what your policy platform is. Feminista Jones:You can go, I think it's

like platform.Trump.com or something like that. They've got their policies written out. Their

mailers that are going out to people are bullet points. Feminista Jones:This is, this is what we're going to do.

You know, first one 80 days day one, this is what we're going to do. They're very clear about what

they're, you know, going to be doing. I mean, you go to her website and it's give us money.

Give us money. Give us money. But no policy platform. And it's like, okay, he says that he's not

going to have no taxes on tips in Nevada. Feminista Jones:Your next rally, you say no taxes on tips.

What is happening right now? Emily Williams:Yeah. Feminista Jones: You know, you say you want to give $6,000 to newborns,

which is as part of this whole nationalist thing because we have to have people have more babies.

Feminista Jones: Well, where's that money going to come from? Like, how are you going to make up for the deficit of

the $6,000 in taxes that you're giving back to be like, I don't, you know, there was a candidate

a few years ago called named Elizabeth Warren who, uh, who are economists background was able to

explain her plans really clearly in terms of how they were going to be funded, how they were going

to be implemented, et cetera. And they all made a lot of sense. And that's why she had a lot of

support, right? Feminista Jones:That's what the people want to hear right now. That's what they want to see

from Harris walls. What are your plans? What are you like, what are you concrete saying that you're

going to do? Not what you're waiting for Congress to do, not what you're going to keep pressuring

people to do or encouraging people to do. Feminista Jones:What are you going to do? And if you look at it,

they're not saying much that Biden wasn't already saying. So that's the, that's where they're

struggling. Emily Williams:Yeah, I agree with you on that. There was a video going around on social media.

There was a woman at the DNC asking people like, which policy of Kamala Harris is your favorite? And

they couldn't say. And it was like 10 people who couldn't say, Feminista Jones:but wait, I just want to say, I think

it's also perfectly fine to continue with the platform that you had the Biden Harris administration.

They've done a lot, but you've got to make sure people know what you were doing. You got to make sure

people, you know, know exactly these how you have benefited their lives and that you're going to

continue that. Emily Williams:Yeah. And that's why I think it's a problem that people can't say exactly what

are what are policies, especially after having spent four long days at the DNC. We need to know

what policies are we talking about. Feminista Jones: But whoever wins, I am a fan of getting rid of this two-party system.

I don't think that it serves the needs of the American people and the citizens of this nation. So

I would like to see, ideally, that you just, if you want to run for office, you run on whatever

platform you have. You don't have to align with a Democrat or a Republican. You just run. Feminista Jones: You just

are who you are. And people just vote for folks based on what they say they want to do. And that's it.

That sounds like democracy to me. But because they've separated into these parties and there's all this

money falling and I'm tens of millions of dollars, that's where I think we get it all mixed up.

Just one person, here's what I want to do. Vote for me. Emily Williams:Yeah. And I think when we think about like the

amount of money that's in politics and the ads and how it can confuse people and take advantage of

people and the voter suppression. I mean, if we had a system where it was truly easy to just vote for

one person based on what they say they'll do and then probably also their record, then we would

be living in a very different country. Feminista Jones:Very different world.Emily Williams: Yeah. Feminista Jones:And I just think about how much money

all these people raised, right? Those white women got on the call and raised all that money.

I was like, what was the last time white women came together and raised money for something in their

communities? Where's the money for the abortion funds? Y'all raised all this money to support

a presidential candidate. But when last few years, how much money have you given to your local

abortion funds? And she'd say that abortion is so important here. Have you ever volunteered as a

clinic escort? You know what I mean? There's travel funds that they have for people to have

to come from other states. Have you donated to that? You know, you show up once every four years and

think you're doing something. But it's like, you know, people still got to have abortions. They're still

going to have abortions. So what are you doing in the meantime? In between time? Emily Williams: Exactly. And I mean,

that's kind of the whole point of what we're trying to do here is to say that we got to go beyond voting.

Right? Yes. There's so much more that we can do to impact this democracy that we live in and

actually create social change. Feminista Jones: Absolutely. I've taken the education route. Like I'm really committed to

trying to just educate people, give them resources, give them things to read, give them facts,

giving them figures. A lot of times people get overwhelmed with some of the information. I will

distill it for you. I will make it easier for you. Like I just want to make sure you get it. And for me,

right now, that's what I see my job is is just to make sure that people have the information they

need to make the best choices for their lives. Emily Williams: Yeah, definitely. And thank you for doing that work.

It's so important. You've talked about how people shouldn't feel the pressure to vote if their

values aren't represented by either candidate. Emily Williams: But let's play that out a little bit. Is that how

the empire crumbles? Don't love questions. Emily Williams:And if people don't vote in presidential elections,

what does not voting mean for the most vulnerable and marginalized among us at home and abroad?

Feminista Jones:I mean, that's the question. Those are the questions, right? What impact is my conscientious

abstinence going to have on the larger population? I know for me, it won't have none because my

delegates are going to democratic candidate, right? So I, in some ways, I have the privilege of

my righteous indignation. And, you know, then we do as activists and folks in this work, we have to

acknowledge that we do have certain privileges to take certain stances because, you know, we can move

like that. Emily Williams:And let me also just say that that's also an example of being educated, right? Being

educated on this political system, educated about one's own social location, privilege, all of

these things. Feminista Jones: So yeah, you know, I have to be, I have to do that. So I was having this conversation

yesterday with a friend of mine and he asked me the same thing. And I'm just like, at the end of the day,

a hundred years from now, if we're still here, if the climate, if the, you know, Earth hasn't

burned to its core because the climate change, they're going to study this the same way we study

the Holocaust, the same way we study slavery. And we're like, who stood up? Who said something?

I think about the Holocaust, everybody wants to ask, how did they let this happen? I'm like, look

around you. This is very easy. How, you know, like, we let this happen. Why are you asking this?

Feminista Jones:Because there are people who will always choose themselves over the greater good and they will vote

for that. I want them to be able to look back to 2024 and have a little section in their textbook

that says, but then there were those who would not go along with this. They were called the

uncommitted delegation or they were the uncommitted voters. And they took the stance that they were

not going to vote in support of the genocide of these people. Feminista Jones: And we're grateful to them because

at least they had the moral conviction to speak up and act for what was right. That's how this is

going to be written in history. We know because we've already read about how it's been written before.

So I made a decision and me and many other people are like, what side am I going to be on?

What I've been silent or what I've been somebody who is actively trying to stop this from happening.

That's not a hard decision for me to make. And some people say, well, you know, if Trump gets

in there, it's going to be even worse. You can't use that with me. Not when we are actively sent,

we've sent them under this democratic president. Feminista Jones:We've sent over 10,000, 2,000 pound bombs.

Okay, we have given them billions and billions of dollars in cash and arms. You cannot tell me

that Donald Trump is a bigger threat when we are the ones responsible for almost 200,000 people

being dead right now. Feminista Jones: There's nothing you can say to me about what the Trump will make it worse.

You kidding me? We've been doing this for the last year. Why would I want to put the people who

have actually shown me that they've been doing it for the last year? Why am I putting them in office

versus the person y'all think is going to continue this? So what do you want me to do?

Emily Williams: That's so sobering to think about the reality of like what's happening right now. And since a lot of

this is rooted in knowing policies and getting educated on how our government works as an educator,

where can people start? Feminista Jones:I love that social media allows for people to share this knowledge and this

information. And while there's a lot of what they call this information or what have you,

it's up to you to be discerning. It's up to you to be able to tell when something is fact or,

fiction. I do think that social media is a really great place to get a lot of this information.

Feminista Jones:I want people to start with reading the Constitution of the United States and all of its amendments.

Start there. Then I would say start reading the local laws and do you know what the laws are in your

state? I'm actually going to ask you, do you know who both your senators are? Who is representing you

in the House of Representatives? Do you know these things? Go to your senators. Who's your governor?

Feminista Jones:You're supposed to know these things, right? Yeah. I want people to think about writers and theorists

like Angela Davis, Huey Newton, his revolutionary suicide book is excellent. Dr. Maleffi Assanti

who coined Afrocentricity, I want you to start thinking about these folks who have challenged us,

you know, in these scholarly and these academic ways, but also were, you know, activists, folks who

are challenging us to look beyond all of this and to start thinking about, you know, what's really

important to me is abortion is your thing. Read books about from abortion activists.

Feminista Jones:Renee Bracey Sherman has one coming out now. Read her book like learned from her. Dorothy Roberts has

this book torn apart about child welfare system and the case for abolition. You want to learn about

the abolitionist movement? Read that book. Read Angela Davis. Read Marklemont Hills book. He wrote

about Palestine. Like these are people who have been doing this work for so long and producing all

of this knowledge. You just have to consume it. You can get all this stuff from your local library.

Feminista Jones:You can go online. You can get you can rent e-books from the library. There's so many ways that you can

access this. Um, there's also podcasts like this one, which you can look in this political podcast

and a lot of people will break down a lot of this stuff for you and give you information that you

hadn't thought about if reading is not really your thing, the audiobooks are there. You know,

there's I just want people to know more and I'm going to challenge my fellow writers, write so people

can read what you're talking about. Okay. We know that the average reading level in the United States is

sixth grade. They are not understanding these multisyllabic words and what you end up doing is

you're publishing these books and things that are just for you and your echo chamber. Feminista Jones: Make sure that

your language is accessible, whatever you're showing, that's what activists do. Like when we make

pamphlets, we make flyers, make them at a sixth grade reading level. You have to make sure that the

people can consume the knowledge that you are trying to impart upon them and and get off your

little clouds, your little elitist spaces. And I'm saying that I have a doctor of philosophy and I'm

just like, nah, we we're supposed to be doing this for the liberation of, you know, our people. And

for equality, if nobody can read and understand what you are writing, then what are they getting from

it? So that's how you get educated, right? Rather than indoctrinated. Emily Williams: Yeah. We need everybody to be able to

come into political consciousness, right? And to be able to access that kind of political education.

So feminista Jones, tell us where people can find you and your work online. Feminista Jones:You can find me on

threads at feminista Jones. You can find my YouTube, please subscribe to my YouTube channel. I'm feminista

Jones. I do, you know, film reviews and stuff under Professor Sinofile. That's, that's been really fun

because I've really been digging into my, my film bag. But yeah, I'm still FJ around most places.

My website is still feministajones.com. So you can reach out to me there. Thank you. Thank you so much.

This has been wonderful. Emily Williams:I loved getting to talk with feminista Jones. She doesn't pull any punches

and I appreciate that her point of view is really well-founded in what's actually happening right now.

Emily Williams:Not the idyllic perspective of what government is and how it functions that we were all taught as kids.

For her, so much goes back to making sure everyone has a robust and accessible political education.

Developing a political consciousness, that means being aware of how your government works,

knowing the history of political movements, reading the works of activists and political thinkers,

and cultivating an informed point of view is such an important part of activist work.

And it's crucial if we ever hope to participate in an electoral process that can truly represent us

and our values. Emily Williams: Talking with feminista about the upcoming election,

I knew that we'd get into specific issues that are deeply troubling voters and rightfully causing

lots of folks to struggle with the decision of whether to vote for president at all.

Emily Williams:Yet, I still find myself kind of surprised by the sobering moments of truth I felt during our conversation.

When talking about the devastation in Gaza, a lot has been said about the potential for the suffering

of worsening if Trump becomes president. But as feminista pointed out, Enroyders reported,

"It's the Biden administration that has sent more than 10,000, 2,000 pound bombs and tens of

billions of dollars in aid to support Israel's military campaign."

At the time of our recording, the Harris-Walls campaign had not released their platform

or posted it to the campaign website. They updated it in early September. But once their

platform was published, we saw that there's very little difference between their policy on Gaza

and the Biden administration. So how convincing is it to say that Trump would be worse than the

utter obliteration of universities, hospitals, religious spaces, historical sites,

homes, in human lives that we've already witnessed in the last 11 months?

Emily Williams:Especially now that we know Vice President Harris has signaled that she'll continue the same

policies responsible for that devastation if she's elected. Add that to the treatment of the

uncommitted delegates at the DNC, a movement of democratic voters over 700,000 strong, many

and critical swing states who've been withholding their vote until their demands for a ceasefire

in arms embargo were taken seriously. Emily Williams:The DNC didn't allow them any prime time space to make their

case to their own party members or adapt any of their suggested language into the democratic party

platform. And we'll hear more about that in our next episode. But if three quarters of a million

votes on the line in this election, again, most in critical swing states still won't move the

needle with the democratic party, it's pretty hard to make sense of why they're not listening.

With disappointments like that, it's hard not to believe that feminists are right when she said

that we the people don't have enough money to hold our elected leaders accountable,

because they are beholden not to their constituents or their party members,

but rather to special interest groups and corporations. Emily Williams: Groups with pockets so deep that

politicians are incentivized to side with them over hundreds of thousands of people.

It's a bleak reminder that for everyday people and activists to exercise influence,

we have to put our bodies on the line before we're taken seriously.

So where do these so more assessments leave us? Do activists abandon their calling to push

and agitate for the change they want to see in the world when up against these kinds of odds?

The truth is we can't give up. We have a calling and a responsibility to keep fighting for

the better world that we know is possible. Well, we know that we have a tough choice to make in

this upcoming election. We can't expect that voting for president alone will save us.

So how do we not let our dismay overwhelm us, but instead allow it to activate us?

You could start a political education program in your community. You could run for a seat on your

local school board or city council. You could resolve to organize with others and hold either

candidate accountable when they get into office. What matters most is that we do something.

These are the baby steps that takes to redesign a democracy we deserve. Because the future matters,

we have to start now. Emily Williams: Tell us how are you feeling about voting in this year's presidential election?

What are your top concerns and how do you plan to make your voice heard? Are you organizing? Tell us

on IG at Arcus Center or drop it in your five star review of the show. And please visit us at

Arcuscenter.kzoo.edu Many thanks to our guest, Dr. Michelle Taylor, also known as

Feminista Jones for sharing her time and incredibly on point observations with us. You can find her

on IG and YouTube at Feminista Jones and on her website FeministaJones.com. She also operates her

own subscription based platform where her followers can hear her thoughts on everything from film

to reproductive justice. And you can find some of her book recommendations linked in our show notes.

Thanks for joining us on Beyond Voting. We'll see you next time.

[Music]

Beyond Voting is hosted by me, Emily Williams. Kisha, TK, Dutas is our executive producer.

Kristen Bennett is our producer. In this episode was written by Kristen Bennett and me.

Many faces is our engineer. Marketing is courtesy of Fabian Mickens,

in our music is provided by Motion Array. Special thanks to my team at the Arcus Center for

Social Justice Leadership. Quentin, Crimson, Tamara, Winter, and Kerria. Beyond Voting is a

production of Philos Future Media.